Herman Freeman: All right. We are recording. And so \u2013<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Sorry about that [inaudible][00:00:06].<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: You\u2019re fine. You\u2019re fine. So, I\u2019m Herman Freeman. I\u2019m a medical student here at UNC. And I am here with Dr. Robert Hines. And I\u2019m just gonna ask you a couple of questions. Well, first off, appreciate you being here and taking time out of your day. I know it was a two-hour drive here. And, yeah, let\u2019s just go ahead and hope into it. So, Mr. Hines \u2013<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Chapel Hill is the southern part of Heaven. That\u2019s what Chapel Hill is, it\u2019s the southern part of Heaven, so.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: I like it.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: It\u2019s great.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: I\u2019ve never heard that before.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Southern part of Heaven. That\u2019s a good way to explain it.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. It is. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. So, first question, where were you born and what was your date of birth?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: May 5th, 1949.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: 1949. Okay.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: In Rocky Mount.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: All right.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Rocky Mount, North Carolina.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Representing Rocky Mount, North Carolina.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Yes.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: So, I think that puts you at about, what, 73?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Seventy-three. Yes.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay. That\u2019s a blessing. That\u2019s a blessing. Next question, what was your family like?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: I grew up with my mother and my father. I have three sisters and two brothers. I was the fourth of six children. And, actually, my father was my hero.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Neither of my parents got to high school. My father got to the eighth grade, but he dropped out to get a job to take care of his mother. He had actually wanted to be an architect. And he was actually the top of his class, but he said that family actually is more important than anything else. And I always felt that my father was never a child, you know.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: He was an old man when he was 10-years-old.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay. Okay. So \u2013<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And part of, sort of, I don\u2019t know if I should say an impetus for me, but I\u2019ve always said if I was ever half as smart as my father, I would\u2019ve been twice as smart as at least 90 percent of people that I ever met. And so, for me, it was important that I do something and try to do something hopefully significant so that I would make both he and my mother proud.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: I know it sounds kind of, you know, like one of those things you see in those movies \u2013<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Like, clich\u00e9.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: I understand.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: But it really was the truth. And he was \u2013 oh, the other thing, as I said, he went to the eighth grade, but at the same time he actually taught himself, and he started his own concrete finishing business, he taught himself geometry and algebra \u2013<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Oh, my gosh.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: \u2013 because he told me once he needed a geometry book. And he said he needed an algebra book. And I said, \u201cWhy is that? You\u2019re a concrete finisher?\u201d He said that it\u2019s easy when you\u2019re just doing things that are just area, and he says it\u2019s easy when you\u2019re doing things that are just flat. He said, \u201cBut when you\u2019re doing a driveway,\u201d he said, \u201cif at the street is four inches and by the time you get to the car port or the garage, it\u2019s six or eight inches,\u201d he said, \u201clots of times it\u2019s not just straight up.\u201d And he said, \u201cYou need to be able to actually figure in the curvature.\u201d And I\u2019m thinking, \u201cAre you sure that you just went to the eighth grade?\u201d I got him a geometry book.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And he taught himself. As I say, I\u2019ve always said, if I was ever half as smart as my father, I\u2019d been twice as smart as at least 90 percent of the people that I ever met.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Wow. That is amazing to hear. I mean, how many people ask for a geometry or algebra book.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: You know \u2013<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: He did.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: \u2013 that\u2019s rare in itself. And so, I guess you looked up to him a lot growing up.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: He was my hero. He really was.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay. Okay. I\u2019m glad to hear that. So, it seems like you were in a big family. What was it like growing up with everybody in one household?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Well, we\u2019re talking the \u201850\u2019s and the early \u201860\u2019s, and it was one of those things that that was sorta the norm in Rocky Mount.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And we didn\u2019t have very much to compare it to. So, it was great. It really was great. And, as I say, you know, I couldn\u2019t have asked for better parents. And I tell everyone, as I say, in my whole life, and this \u2013 in my whole life, with six children, I heard my father curse three times. I\u2019m sorry. Yeah, I heard him curse three times in my whole life. And two of those times he was cursing at me. And that\u2019s the truth.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: You must\u2019ve been a trouble-child.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Well, I always wanted to know answers to things.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And 50 years ago, there were certain things you should not ask.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: I didn\u2019t know that early enough. But, yeah, it was great.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay. Cool. Cool. All right. So, now we\u2019re gonna transition to some questions about medical school. So, right after high school, what were some options that you considered as far as a career? And the, after that, could you tell me about your college experience?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Actually, I really wanted to, as a kid, I wanted to grow up and play second base for the Yankees.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: But I could not hit a curveball. My son asked me once, he said, \u201cDad,\u201d he said, \u201cif you could\u2019ve been the surgeon general, the top doctor in America, or a utility infielder for the Yankees, that guy who sits on the bench, what would you have chosen?\u201d I said, \u201cAnybody can be the surgeon general. If I could\u2019ve hit a curve ball, I would\u2019ve played second base for the Yankees.\u201d Now, at the same time, I\u2019ve never regretted doing medicine. And I love surgery. It was just great.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: That\u2019s beautiful to hear. There\u2019s nothing like them Yankees, right?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Yes.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: All right. Let\u2019s see here. What else is on my list? So, where did you graduate from college and in what year and why did you go there?<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Actually, \u201976. I think it was\u201976 I graduated from Duke. I went to Duke because I got a full scholarship to Duke.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And actually, I was one of the first 50 Black people at Duke.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And one of the first reasons that I went there was because a girl in the class ahead of me, her mother was our English teacher, and she had gone to Duke, and I was planning to go to an HBCU. But Duke offered me a full scholarship. And so, you know, it was \u2013 my father was a concrete finisher, and my mother was a maid.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And so, I knew that I was not going to be able to pay for any of my college. And Duke gave me a full scholarship because I was \u2013 you know, one of the things that could do is I could remember things. And so, actually, you know, like, I try to be as self-effacing as possible, I was actually No. 2 in my class \u2013<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay.
\ns
\nDr. Robert Hines: \u2013 in high school. And my son asked me, \u201cWhy weren\u2019t you No. 1?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause I could be No. 2 and not really work that hard, but the girl who was No. 1, I mean, she worked at it like it was her job and her part-time job.\u201d<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: \u201cAnd I could just sort of, you know, take it easy.\u201d But I went to Duke because it was close to home, and they gave me a full scholarship. I didn\u2019t know when I got there that, you know, there were not many of us at Duke.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: But I liked it. It was different.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: That\u2019s us. Thank you.<\/p>\n
Male Speaker: Enjoy.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: Thank you, sir. And it was \u2013 my son asked \u2013 I have three children, and he asked me before he went to college and then after he had been there for a while, he said, \u201cDad, if you had it to do over, where would you go?\u201d And he said, \u201cI\u2019m asking you that partially because I know you were one of the first 50 Black people at Duke.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019d go to a Black school.\u201d And he said, \u201cWhy did you go to Duke?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause I didn\u2019t have any money.\u201d I said, \u201cAnd Duke gave me a full scholarship.\u201d<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And he asked, he said, \u201cIf you went to a Black school, where would you have gone?\u201d And I said, \u201cI would\u2019ve gone to Howard \u2013\u201d<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: \u201cI would\u2019ve gone to Morehouse,\u201d because I had gone to Morehouse the summer before I started college, \u201cand I would\u2019ve to North Carolina Central.\u201d And he said, \u201cWhat would have been determining factors?\u201d And I said, \u201cNo. 1 would\u2019ve been the academics.\u201d I said, \u201cThe other thing, needs to have pretty girls.\u201d And he said, \u201cReally?\u201d I said, \u201cYes.\u201d I had gone to Morehouse the summer before college. And I told him, I said \u2013 and Morehouse was right across the street from Spelman.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And so, here I am a country boy from Rocky Mount \u2013<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: \u2013 and I\u2019m down here in Atlanta, Georgia, and I had never met so many brilliant Black guys in my life. It was great. And I had never seen so many pretty girls.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And so, he said, \u201cSo, why didn\u2019t you stay there?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause my parents couldn\u2019t pay for it. But Duke paid for everything. And the only thing I had to do at Duke was to get good grades.\u201d<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: Yep.<\/p>\n
Dr. Robert Hines: And that\u2019s what I did there.<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: All right. Okay. I\u2019m gonna pause for a second.<\/p>\n[End of Audio]\n
Duration: 11 minutes<\/p>\n
Herman Freeman: All right. We are back with part two of the interview. And so, Dr. Hines, next question I wanted to ask you is how did you begin to consider medicine as a career? And can you tell me about any people who influenced you to consider medicine?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Actually, what I really wanted to do was I wanted to play second base for the Yankees, but I couldn\u2019t hit a curveball. And one of the things that I realized was that I could process information. And my mother was hospitalized when I was in junior high school. And when that happened, one of the things I used to do was I used to visit her a lot. And I also would, when they would allow me to, I\u2019d talk to the doctor. And I realized that it was interesting. And also, I felt like I could help people, because, you know, it was either that or play second base for the Yankees. I could not hit a curveball and I\u2019m serious.<\/p>\n
\nBut if you gave me information, I could remember it. And the thing was, as I say, in medicine, you can help somebody.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And that was really, really important to me.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay. All right. I love your answer. Next question is were there any enrichment programs for Black and brown students? I know I mentioned earlier they have, like, MED for UNC, or, like, SPFD for ECU, and I was just wondering if they had anything like that.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: There weren\u2019t any when I was elementary, junior high. And by the time that I actually had some familiarity with it, I was a junior in high school. And so, it was too late for me to get into it at that point.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: One of the things that I promised myself that I was gonna do was once I got into medical school and finished and all, I wanted to try to make sure that any young person who had any interest at all, I would try to help to see if I couldn\u2019t make their paths a lot easier and more informative than mine was.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nFemale Speaker: You guys still okay?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah. We good. Thank you.<\/p>\n
\nFemale Speaker: You want some more water?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, please.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I\u2019m gonna wanna take this.<\/p>\n
\nFemale Speaker: All right. This is the box.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Thanks.<\/p>\n
\nFemale Speaker: [Inaudible] [00:02:37].<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Thank you.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh, and also, when I was in high school, they had this enrichment program down at Morehouse and I was fortunate enough to get into that. And I didn\u2019t do any hospital work at that point, but I did get to \u2013 it taught me a lot as far as what the different disciplines were in medicine.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Because in growing up in basically, I should say, kind of a rustic environment, I\u2019d never heard of what a urologist was. I\u2019d never heard that until I took my second year of medical school.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I knew internal medicine, pediatrics, and surgery.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Thank you.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I didn\u2019t know geriatrics and things like that.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And I knew neurosurgery because of the TV show Ben Casey. But as far as the disciplines, I didn\u2019t know those.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Got you. Got you. All right. So, now these next couple of questions are gonna come from your perspective as a Black medical student. All right. And so, the first question is tell me about your time at UNC overall.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Overall, I had gone to Duke as an undergrad, and then UNC was for medical school. I always felt that Chapel Hill was much more open in so many ways. Chapel Hill also tended to try to make you more well-rounded. And for lack of a better term, the people in Chapel Hill had more \u201cheart.\u201d And they were more interested.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: That\u2019s a to go bag.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: That\u2019s not my [inaudible][00:04:33].<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: You gotta put the box in the bag.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh. Okay. All right.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: I gotta rewind a little bit.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Okay. Okay. I was just gonna put it all together like bachelors do. Okay. But go on. I\u2019m ready for the next one.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah, yeah. So, it was just a question about your time at UNC as a Black student.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: As a Black student in Chapel Hill. My younger brother went to Carolina undergrad and he\u2019s four years younger than me. And part of the reason that I recommended UNC to him as far as undergrad was because I though that in Chapel Hill the people were much friendlier. And I thought Chapel Hill was also much more \u2013 it was much more worldly. And worldly is not really the word I\u2019m looking for. Chapel Hill, it was more inclusive than Duke was. And so, when my younger brother said, he\u2019s four years younger, he said that, \u2013 and basically I told him that he\u2019s going to college. Yes, I did. He said, \u201cHow do you know?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause that\u2019s what I have decided, and so it means that\u2019s what we have decided.<\/p>\n
\nAnd so, when he went to Carolina, I knew he would like it and he did. And I thought the people here were friendlier. The people here were much more worldly in the sense of \u2013 I don\u2019t know if I should say having a worldview, but thinking that people throughout the world were basically the same.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And the students were nicer. The students were just nicer.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And don\u2019t get me wrong, I mean, I enjoyed \u2013 no, I actually did not enjoy Chapel Hill \u2013 I didn\u2019t enjoy Duke very much because, as I say, I was one of the first 50 Black people at Duke. And [inaudible][00:06:43] I always said I never wanted to be the first \u2013 you don\u2019t wanna be the first Black guy. And I told my brother this, I told my son this. You wanna to get another Black guy in, kick him around, and so when you get there \u2013 I\u2019m Robert, I didn\u2019t even know I was Bob until I got in college, \u2018cause I\u2019d say \u201cHi I\u2019m Robert\u201d and [Inaudible] \u201cHi Bob.\u201d My brother was \u2013 yeah. Because nobody calls you Bob.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I didn\u2019t know that Richard was Dick.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah, yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You know. And my younger brother was Alonso, and he was saying the same thing. He said back in Rocky Mount was, like, \u201cHey there, Alonso.\u201d And he got to Chapel Hill and it was, \u201cHi, Al.\u201d And it was much more comradery. And there was less, one of those words, less exclusivity.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And the people were much more inviting here. And I think Duke tried, but Duke was very much class conscious.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And I don\u2019t like tell a whole lot of people but, you don\u2019t wanna be the first Black guy. You really don\u2019t wanna be the first Black guy.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And when you see those people who, it\u2019s like with Wilt Chamberlin, with Bill Russell, with those people who went first, they always, well I shouldn\u2019t say always, but for the most part they still have that tinge of anger with them.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And the people who go to Chapel Hill don\u2019t.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And I know that I still \u2013 I remember those times at Duke. I remember those times when from east campus to west campus, you know, and where you have some classes in west campus was mostly guys and east campus was girls, and there would be times when you\u2019re running for the bus and the bus pulls off.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Oh. Now, I know what you\u2019re getting at.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yeah. And when I got here because I was here two years for graduate school, and then I was here four years for med school. And I always felt more at home here.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You can\u2019t find that at a lot of places. And, that\u2019s it.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Thank you for that answer.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And the same in class. Because one of the things that happened, you know, you didn\u2019t \u2013 lots of times even the times when someone would ask a question, a teacher, you\u2019re trying to, you know, give an answer, and I noticed that when I got here the teacher or the professor or whoever, if you started to answer, they didn\u2019t cut you off. That happened quite a bit at Duke. To the point that you don\u2019t even answer.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir. So, that leads us to my question. What was it like being one of the few Black people in your class? Did you often think about that? And if so, why?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I\u2019m laughing because this is what I just say to everybody, my son went to Morehouse, which is all Black, because I had gone to Duke which was all white. And when he finished and I told him, I said, \u201cI\u2019m not saying that the school is any better,\u201d I said, \u201cbecause people are pretty much the same everywhere.\u201d I said, \u201cBut in college there\u2019s certain things that you\u2019re gonna want. You wanna get a good education, but you also wanna be happy.\u201d And I remember his second year at Morehouse he said, \u201cDad, thanks for recommending Morehouse.\u201d He said, \u201cBecause for the first time since I started school,\u201d he said, \u201cthe people treated me like I was just like everybody else.\u201d And he said, \u201cI was getting called on just like everybody else.\u201d And he said that \u2013 because I noticed the same thing. If someone asked me a question and I answered, and if I was correct, they just said, \u201cOkay.\u201d And if my classmate beside me, whose name might\u2019ve been something like Van, \u2018cause you don\u2019t see a lot of us whose name\u2019s that, you know, white guy, and they say, \u201cGood answer.\u201d I never saw or heard a Black student in all the time I was at Duke in over four years where they said, \u201cGood answer.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nBut then when I got to Chapel Hill, I did. And I\u2019ve had that conversation with my son, and it was the same with him, \u2018cause he said that even in junior high and high school, because if someone would ask me and I give the answer and they say, \u201cOkay.\u201d And whoever was sitting beside say what would happen and they give the same answer, they say, \u201cThat\u2019s good answer.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And one of the ways that I sorta put that to a test, I was an English major and my freshman year lots of times in freshman English you get a lot of essays, you know. And what happen was I do an essay and there was a fellow who was a couple years ahead of me and he was an English major. He was actually honors English. And I was telling him, I said – I thought I was pretty good. I told him that, I said, \u201cNo matter what I do I never get anything more than a B.\u201d And he was from Princeton, New Jersey. And he couldn\u2019t believe me. And he said, \u201cWell, I tell you what.\u201d And I said, \u201cIt\u2019s because I\u2019m Black.\u201d He said, \u201cNo, it\u2019s not.\u201d I said, \u201cIt is.\u201d And he said, \u201cI\u2019ll tell you what,\u201d and he was honors English, he said, \u201cI\u2019m going to do a paper.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: He said, \u201cNext assignment you get, I\u2019m going write the paper and you will submit it.\u201d And guess what?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: What?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: He got a B.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: That paper got a B.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And that\u2019s the thing, and, you know, I\u2019ve not told that to five people in 50 years. That\u2019s when I knew that there were certain things that weren\u2019t gonna change.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Duke was actually \u2013 most people don\u2019t – the last school in the ACC to get a Black basketball player was Duke.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: I didn\u2019t know that.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Duke was one of the last schools, I think there might\u2019ve been another one, but it was Duke. It was either, I\u2019m trying to remember Duke or South Carolina, but I think it was 7th of 8 schools. Duke didn\u2019t take Black basketball players.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And if you were on the team, there was a fellow, C. B. Clayton, and C. B., he was all conference back in Virginia. He came here, went out for the team, he made team, but he was seldom on the floor.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: To me, I\u2019ve always said you wanna come while it\u2019s fully segregated or fully integrated. At that time where you\u2019re melting and you\u2019re meshing, no. Duke was not that place. And even when Krzyzewski came \u2013 South Carolina, believe it or not, as I remember, South Carolina I think had Black players before Duke. Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Chapel Hill was different. And actually, what we did my first couple years, if someone came, like, I think \u2013 what we did was, Michigan came. Michigan had Black players. Duke didn\u2019t have Black players.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And, you know, now K wanted to win. K had come from West Point.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: I think, was it the Fab Five?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: That was Michigan.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: When they played Duke. They did a ESPN special on that. I remember looking at that. Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And that really was Duke. And I remember someone said to me long ago, they said that the worst racist was an educated one. I had never thought about it before that. But then I started looking at the way things happened. And so, when my son came along, and he was thinking about it and he asked me, he said, \u201cDad, if you had it to do over, what would you do?\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019d go to a Black school initially.\u201d I said, \u201cThen graduate school, I\u2019d go to an integrated school.\u201d And so, he went to Morehouse undergrad. And he asked me, he said, \u201cWhat would determine it?\u2019 He said, \u201cThe school would have to be really good academically and it needs to have pretty girls.\u201d And here his mother was, like, \u201cDid you tell him that?\u201d I said, \u201cYes, I did.\u201d The other thing was that, and you don\u2019t wanna put this in there because Duke didn\u2019t have the prettiest women. I\u2019m talking about white women. They weren\u2019t pretty. I said, \u201cBut you wanna be at a place that has pretty girls.\u201d<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And Duke didn\u2019t. But, no, Duke was \u2013 I\u2019m happy to see where Duke is now, because my son went to Duke for law school. But he had gone to Morehouse undergrad. And he loved Morehouse \u2018cause he said he\u2019d never seen so many beautiful Black women. And the thing that he said was that he had never seen so many brilliant Black guys. And he liked it.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Now, Chapel Hill, I remember, Dean Smith. He was ahead of his time in so many ways because what Dean Smith did was Charlie Scott. I was at Duke when Charlie Scott, \u2018cause Charlie Scott was, like, his first Black guy. And what Dean did, somebody said something to Scott or about Scott. Dean was gonna go up in the stands. I\u2019m serious. And K was, and I can\u2019t put it all on K \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: \u2013 but I think Duke is a different place than it was then.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: The reason that Duke took Black students, because Duke was, you know, Duke was taking people who did not get into Harvard and Yale. And Duke was, you know, the Duke family was, you know, they was rich rich. And so, they didn\u2019t really need a lot of federal money. Probably the biggest reason that Duke actually started taking federal money was because had they not done it, they weren\u2019t gonna get \u2013 had they taken Black students, they weren\u2019t gonna get federal funds. That is not written, but that\u2019s what happened. Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Interesting.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: It was not a fun place.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Thank you for sharing all of that with me. I couldn\u2019t imagine what that felt like.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: It was Hell.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And then, what they had was the KAs. KAs, they were basically \u2013 it was a frat.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: They would \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Kappa Alpha.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yeah. And they were just regular white boys. And the thing is what they used to do a lot of times is just beat the \u2013 you know, like, they just beat guys up for fun.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Really?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yeah. Until we got there.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You know, \u2018cause somebody called one of the brothers a nigger. And that was all it took because, you know, then there was, you know \u2013 it\u2019s, like, we\u2019re gonna take them on.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And when they realized that, we had some kinda crazy things, you know.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: It was, like, \u201cNo, you can\u2019t mess with me.\u201d You know. One of things I always promised myself, I was gonna have a hard time speaking sleeping knowing a white boy had beaten [Inaudible]. And I think that was kinda the mindset that we had. Plus, the thing that you learned was that unless or until you showed the administration that you weren\u2019t going to take it, they weren\u2019t gonna really do anything. And what happened also was that, you know, they had these kind of wimpy guys, but we had guys who, you know \u2013 like, there was this phrase \u201cwhen you ain\u2019t got nothing, you ain\u2019t got nothing to lose\u201d. And what they felt was that because they had \u201cgiven us an education\u201d that we should just take it, but what they didn\u2019t say was that the only reason that Duke took Black [inaudible] students was because absent that, they were not going to get any federal funds. That was the only reason they took us.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p>\n
\nI mean, I remember there was [inaudible] went to Davidson, I think it was Malloy. They had Black players and Duke didn\u2019t. That\u2019s why, like, with your generation, I mean, like, you or, like, with my son, \u2018cause my son asked me, \u2018cause he said, \u201cDad,\u201d he said, \u201cIf you had it to do over, where would you go?\u201d And I said, \u201cI\u2019d go to a school that was integrated.\u201d I said, \u201cBut one thing it had to have \u2013\u201d<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Dr. Hines, you said it already. Probably like three or four times.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yeah. Because, you know, you had to have pretty girls.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah. I hear you. For the fourth time for emphasis<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yes. Yes. I mean, as I told you, guys said, the only difference between girls and dogs was that the girls didn\u2019t bark.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Oh, my God.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I was, like, that is so cold. Yeah, but that is true, I do repeat myself.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: All right. So, one more question from your perspective as a Black student.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Yes.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Did you ever feel imposter syndrome?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You mean, like, I shouldn\u2019t have been there?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You mean, did I ever feel it or was I ever made to feel that way? I mean, I know what you\u2019re saying. But, yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh, you mean, like, when you\u2019re walking into class and the instructor says good morning to everybody but you?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Quite often, quite often.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Enough said.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: See, what most people don\u2019t know is that, yeah, Duke was the last school, Clemson was in the ACC \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Remember how you said that before, too.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I know, but that\u2019s why I \u2013 oh, are you still recording?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh, I\u2019m sorry. I didn\u2019t know you were still recording.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: But, yeah, that was the thing. And we were here so that they did get the money and you knew it. But, yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir. Okay. Next up, we have a couple more questions.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: So, what was residency like compared to medical school?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Medical school I was already married. Residency, you mean, living here, or \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah. So, just your experience as far as educational residency versus medical school.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Oh. In medical school I was married while I was in medical school for the most part.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And medical school was so much \u2013 socially, it was much, much better. And actually, I enjoyed medical school much, much more because I felt that for the first time it was, like, okay, I\u2019m learning something and at some point I will be able to help somebody.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Right.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And so, I loved it. Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay. Got you. Got you. Next, so what is the most and least rewarding aspect of your career in the present?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: In my career?<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: The most rewarding has been my ability to make a difference in people\u2019s lives, and to know one of the main reasons I did surgery rather than internal medicine or family practice was because in surgery you see your results. If you\u2019re going to have someone that you can make an improvement on, you\u2019re gonna see that within, you know, usually, lots of times within a day or two.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Right.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Somebody comes in with let\u2019s say a kidney stone and you can remove that stone. Someone comes in and they can\u2019t urinate. Someone has a tumor, and you can remove it, or you can change it to the point that you can see then and there \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: \u2013 that you have improved their condition then and their long-term outlook. And that was one of the biggest reasons that I actually decided to do surgery.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Because if you\u2019re doing something, let\u2019s say, someone has heart failure, it takes much longer for you to see the difference. And I wanted to be able to know before they left the hospital that they would be doing better.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And that was one of the most rewarding things for me.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: And to know that, you know, they could be like everybody else.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Thank you. Two more questions. So, next up, how does being a Black physician, matter in your workplace, family, and community?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: As far as being rewarding, I don\u2019t know if I can even put that into words in the sense that \u2013 well, I\u2019ll put it like this, knowing that if someone comes in and they have a problem, and easiest thing to do, like a kidney stone, someone \u2013 no, no. [Inaudible][00:26:03]. As a urologist, I had those fellows who would be getting up to urinate five or six times a night. And then, I say, \u201cOkay, I think we can improve that.\u201d And I know they have a large prostate. Let\u2019s say they come into the hospital on Monday, I do the surgery on Tuesday, and I leave the catheter in until Wednesday. And, let\u2019s say that, okay, two days after I do the surgery, I\u2019m removing the catheter. And then, two weeks from that time they\u2019re peeing like they did five and 10 years ago. They\u2019re not getting up four or five times a night. They\u2019re not urinating on themselves. They can control their urine. And they can take longer trips. They can get back to that life and lifestyle that they had five, 10, 20 years ago. That was one of the most rewarding things for me with that.<\/p>\n
\nAnd the other thing was as a urologist, I did a lot of ED, erectile dysfunction. And so, at one point I was told I was one of the top 100 penile implant surgeons in the country.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Okay.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: I put a lot of implants in. So, you know.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Well, anyway, but the thing that I\u2019m saying is to know, because as men, we equate so much of our manhood with our ability to get an erection. And so, when you get a guy, be he Black, white, Asian, Indian, once they\u2019re no longer able to perform sexually, then the way that they view themselves is totally different. But once you get them back to the point where they can feel like they can do what they did five, 10, 20 years ago, their whole perception of themselves as men changes. It goes back from like that fellow who\u2019s feeling sorry for himself because he\u2019s 60, 70 years old, or 50 years old, especially if he\u2019s diabetic, and he can no longer, as they say, \u201cplease his wife.\u201d And then, you get him to the point where he can basically perform like he did when he was 35, there\u2019s nothing like it.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Wow.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: You have fellows who are crying, \u201cI never thought I could do this again.\u201d Yeah. And so, that was really, really \u2013 it brought me a joy that, it\u2019s kinda hard to explain \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: \u2013 because as men, we equate our ability to produce erections and perform sex, we equate that with our manliness. And once men can\u2019t do it, they think of themselves as less of a man.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir.<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: It\u2019s kinda crazy, but that\u2019s the way we are.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And one more question. What advice would you give to current Black medical students?<\/p>\n
\nDr. Robert Hines: Be as prepared as you can before you get to medical school, do as well as you can while you\u2019re in, and then once you finish and you\u2019re in practice, race, creed, and color should not matter. At the same time that race, creed, and color should not matter, unless you\u2019re in an academic situation, then chances are that you\u2019re going to be treating more people who look like you. And one of the things that my father told me, he said, \u201cWhat I want you to always remember is that anytime you treat anyone, it\u2019s not just you,\u201d he said, \u201cyou are representing everybody who looks like you.\u201d And he said, \u201cYou remember that with everybody you see, everybody you touch, everybody you talk to.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n
\nAnd I remember when he said that, I was thinking, \u201cThat sounds a little corny.\u201d But at the same time, over the years, and actually it didn\u2019t even take that long because what you found was that people \u2013 everybody who you know that you\u2019ve done the best you could for someone, and they know that \u2013 actually, we had this phrase that we said \u201cwe\u2019re gonna treat everybody like they were white folk\u201d. But that was the thing. Yeah. Like, as I say, you can say this, the best advice I ever got, he said, \u201cYou treat \u2013\u201d no, my mother, she said, \u201cYou treat everybody as if they\u2019re a family member of yours regardless of race, creed, or color.\u201d And that\u2019s the way I tried to basically conduct myself. Yeah.<\/p>\n
\nHerman Freeman: Well, I appreciate that. That concludes our interview. Thank you for taking time to come down and talk to me.\u00a0<\/p>\n
\n[End of Audio]\n
\nDuration: 31 minutes<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"