Dr. Robert Hines

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  Herman Freeman: All right. We are recording. And so –

  Dr. Robert Hines: Sorry about that [inaudible][00:00:06].

  Herman Freeman: You’re fine. You’re fine. So, I’m Herman Freeman. I’m a medical student here at UNC. And I am here with Dr. Robert Hines. And I’m just gonna ask you a couple of questions. Well, first off, appreciate you being here and taking time out of your day. I know it was a two-hour drive here. And, yeah, let’s just go ahead and hope into it. So, Mr. Hines –

  Dr. Robert Hines: Chapel Hill is the southern part of Heaven. That’s what Chapel Hill is, it’s the southern part of Heaven, so.

  Herman Freeman: I like it.

  Dr. Robert Hines: It’s great.

  Herman Freeman: I’ve never heard that before.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Southern part of Heaven. That’s a good way to explain it.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. It is. Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. So, first question, where were you born and what was your date of birth?

  Dr. Robert Hines: May 5th, 1949.

  Herman Freeman: 1949. Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: In Rocky Mount.

  Herman Freeman: All right.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Rocky Mount, North Carolina.

  Herman Freeman: Representing Rocky Mount, North Carolina.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yes.

  Herman Freeman: So, I think that puts you at about, what, 73?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Seventy-three. Yes.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. That’s a blessing. That’s a blessing. Next question, what was your family like?

  Dr. Robert Hines: I grew up with my mother and my father. I have three sisters and two brothers. I was the fourth of six children. And, actually, my father was my hero.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Neither of my parents got to high school. My father got to the eighth grade, but he dropped out to get a job to take care of his mother. He had actually wanted to be an architect. And he was actually the top of his class, but he said that family actually is more important than anything else. And I always felt that my father was never a child, you know.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: He was an old man when he was 10-years-old.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. Okay. So –

  Dr. Robert Hines: And part of, sort of, I don’t know if I should say an impetus for me, but I’ve always said if I was ever half as smart as my father, I would’ve been twice as smart as at least 90 percent of people that I ever met. And so, for me, it was important that I do something and try to do something hopefully significant so that I would make both he and my mother proud.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I know it sounds kind of, you know, like one of those things you see in those movies –

  Herman Freeman: Like, cliché.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: I understand.

  Dr. Robert Hines: But it really was the truth. And he was – oh, the other thing, as I said, he went to the eighth grade, but at the same time he actually taught himself, and he started his own concrete finishing business, he taught himself geometry and algebra –

  Herman Freeman: Oh, my gosh.

  Dr. Robert Hines: – because he told me once he needed a geometry book. And he said he needed an algebra book. And I said, “Why is that? You’re a concrete finisher?” He said that it’s easy when you’re just doing things that are just area, and he says it’s easy when you’re doing things that are just flat. He said, “But when you’re doing a driveway,” he said, “if at the street is four inches and by the time you get to the car port or the garage, it’s six or eight inches,” he said, “lots of times it’s not just straight up.” And he said, “You need to be able to actually figure in the curvature.” And I’m thinking, “Are you sure that you just went to the eighth grade?” I got him a geometry book.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And he taught himself. As I say, I’ve always said, if I was ever half as smart as my father, I’d been twice as smart as at least 90 percent of the people that I ever met.

  Herman Freeman: Wow. That is amazing to hear. I mean, how many people ask for a geometry or algebra book.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh, yeah.

  Herman Freeman: You know –

  Dr. Robert Hines: He did.

  Herman Freeman: – that’s rare in itself. And so, I guess you looked up to him a lot growing up.

  Dr. Robert Hines: He was my hero. He really was.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. Okay. I’m glad to hear that. So, it seems like you were in a big family. What was it like growing up with everybody in one household?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Well, we’re talking the ‘50’s and the early ‘60’s, and it was one of those things that that was sorta the norm in Rocky Mount.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And we didn’t have very much to compare it to. So, it was great. It really was great. And, as I say, you know, I couldn’t have asked for better parents. And I tell everyone, as I say, in my whole life, and this – in my whole life, with six children, I heard my father curse three times. I’m sorry. Yeah, I heard him curse three times in my whole life. And two of those times he was cursing at me. And that’s the truth.

  Herman Freeman: You must’ve been a trouble-child.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Well, I always wanted to know answers to things.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And 50 years ago, there were certain things you should not ask.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah, yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I didn’t know that early enough. But, yeah, it was great.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. Cool. Cool. All right. So, now we’re gonna transition to some questions about medical school. So, right after high school, what were some options that you considered as far as a career? And the, after that, could you tell me about your college experience?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Actually, I really wanted to, as a kid, I wanted to grow up and play second base for the Yankees.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: But I could not hit a curveball. My son asked me once, he said, “Dad,” he said, “if you could’ve been the surgeon general, the top doctor in America, or a utility infielder for the Yankees, that guy who sits on the bench, what would you have chosen?” I said, “Anybody can be the surgeon general. If I could’ve hit a curve ball, I would’ve played second base for the Yankees.” Now, at the same time, I’ve never regretted doing medicine. And I love surgery. It was just great.

  Herman Freeman: That’s beautiful to hear. There’s nothing like them Yankees, right?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yes.

  Herman Freeman: All right. Let’s see here. What else is on my list? So, where did you graduate from college and in what year and why did you go there?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Actually, ’76. I think it was’76 I graduated from Duke. I went to Duke because I got a full scholarship to Duke.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And actually, I was one of the first 50 Black people at Duke.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And one of the first reasons that I went there was because a girl in the class ahead of me, her mother was our English teacher, and she had gone to Duke, and I was planning to go to an HBCU. But Duke offered me a full scholarship. And so, you know, it was – my father was a concrete finisher, and my mother was a maid.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And so, I knew that I was not going to be able to pay for any of my college. And Duke gave me a full scholarship because I was – you know, one of the things that could do is I could remember things. And so, actually, you know, like, I try to be as self-effacing as possible, I was actually No. 2 in my class –

  Herman Freeman: Okay.
  s
  Dr. Robert Hines: – in high school. And my son asked me, “Why weren’t you No. 1?” I said, “Because I could be No. 2 and not really work that hard, but the girl who was No. 1, I mean, she worked at it like it was her job and her part-time job.”

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: “And I could just sort of, you know, take it easy.” But I went to Duke because it was close to home, and they gave me a full scholarship. I didn’t know when I got there that, you know, there were not many of us at Duke.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: But I liked it. It was different.

  Herman Freeman: That’s us. Thank you.

  Male Speaker: Enjoy.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Thank you, sir. And it was – my son asked – I have three children, and he asked me before he went to college and then after he had been there for a while, he said, “Dad, if you had it to do over, where would you go?” And he said, “I’m asking you that partially because I know you were one of the first 50 Black people at Duke.” I said, “I’d go to a Black school.” And he said, “Why did you go to Duke?” I said, “Because I didn’t have any money.” I said, “And Duke gave me a full scholarship.”

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And he asked, he said, “If you went to a Black school, where would you have gone?” And I said, “I would’ve gone to Howard –”

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: “I would’ve gone to Morehouse,” because I had gone to Morehouse the summer before I started college, “and I would’ve to North Carolina Central.” And he said, “What would have been determining factors?” And I said, “No. 1 would’ve been the academics.” I said, “The other thing, needs to have pretty girls.” And he said, “Really?” I said, “Yes.” I had gone to Morehouse the summer before college. And I told him, I said – and Morehouse was right across the street from Spelman.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And so, here I am a country boy from Rocky Mount –

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: – and I’m down here in Atlanta, Georgia, and I had never met so many brilliant Black guys in my life. It was great. And I had never seen so many pretty girls.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And so, he said, “So, why didn’t you stay there?” I said, “Because my parents couldn’t pay for it. But Duke paid for everything. And the only thing I had to do at Duke was to get good grades.”

  Herman Freeman: Yep.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And that’s what I did there.

  Herman Freeman: All right. Okay. I’m gonna pause for a second.

  [End of Audio]

  Duration: 11 minutes

  Herman Freeman: All right. We are back with part two of the interview. And so, Dr. Hines, next question I wanted to ask you is how did you begin to consider medicine as a career? And can you tell me about any people who influenced you to consider medicine?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Actually, what I really wanted to do was I wanted to play second base for the Yankees, but I couldn’t hit a curveball. And one of the things that I realized was that I could process information. And my mother was hospitalized when I was in junior high school. And when that happened, one of the things I used to do was I used to visit her a lot. And I also would, when they would allow me to, I’d talk to the doctor. And I realized that it was interesting. And also, I felt like I could help people, because, you know, it was either that or play second base for the Yankees. I could not hit a curveball and I’m serious.

  But if you gave me information, I could remember it. And the thing was, as I say, in medicine, you can help somebody.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And that was really, really important to me.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. All right. I love your answer. Next question is were there any enrichment programs for Black and brown students? I know I mentioned earlier they have, like, MED for UNC, or, like, SPFD for ECU, and I was just wondering if they had anything like that.

  Dr. Robert Hines: There weren’t any when I was elementary, junior high. And by the time that I actually had some familiarity with it, I was a junior in high school. And so, it was too late for me to get into it at that point. 

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: One of the things that I promised myself that I was gonna do was once I got into medical school and finished and all, I wanted to try to make sure that any young person who had any interest at all, I would try to help to see if I couldn’t make their paths a lot easier and more informative than mine was.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Female Speaker: You guys still okay?

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. We good. Thank you.

  Female Speaker: You want some more water?

  Herman Freeman: Yes, please.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I’m gonna wanna take this.

  Female Speaker: All right. This is the box.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Thanks.

  Female Speaker: [Inaudible] [00:02:37].

  Herman Freeman: Thank you.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh, and also, when I was in high school, they had this enrichment program down at Morehouse and I was fortunate enough to get into that. And I didn’t do any hospital work at that point, but I did get to – it taught me a lot as far as what the different disciplines were in medicine.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Because in growing up in basically, I should say, kind of a rustic environment, I’d never heard of what a urologist was. I’d never heard that until I took my second year of medical school.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I knew internal medicine, pediatrics, and surgery.

  Herman Freeman: Thank you.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I didn’t know geriatrics and things like that.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And I knew neurosurgery because of the TV show Ben Casey. But as far as the disciplines, I didn’t know those. 

  Herman Freeman: Got you. Got you. All right. So, now these next couple of questions are gonna come from your perspective as a Black medical student. All right. And so, the first question is tell me about your time at UNC overall.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Overall, I had gone to Duke as an undergrad, and then UNC was for medical school. I always felt that Chapel Hill was much more open in so many ways. Chapel Hill also tended to try to make you more well-rounded. And for lack of a better term, the people in Chapel Hill had more “heart.” And they were more interested.

  Herman Freeman: That’s a to go bag.

  Dr. Robert Hines: That’s not my [inaudible][00:04:33].

  Herman Freeman: You gotta put the box in the bag.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh. Okay. All right. 

  Herman Freeman: I gotta rewind a little bit.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Okay. Okay. I was just gonna put it all together like bachelors do. Okay. But go on. I’m ready for the next one.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah, yeah. So, it was just a question about your time at UNC as a Black student.

  Dr. Robert Hines: As a Black student in Chapel Hill. My younger brother went to Carolina undergrad and he’s four years younger than me. And part of the reason that I recommended UNC to him as far as undergrad was because I though that in Chapel Hill the people were much friendlier. And I thought Chapel Hill was also much more – it was much more worldly. And worldly is not really the word I’m looking for. Chapel Hill, it was more inclusive than Duke was. And so, when my younger brother said, he’s four years younger, he said that, – and basically I told him that he’s going to college. Yes, I did. He said, “How do you know?” I said, “Because that’s what I have decided, and so it means that’s what we have decided.

  And so, when he went to Carolina, I knew he would like it and he did. And I thought the people here were friendlier. The people here were much more worldly in the sense of – I don’t know if I should say having a worldview, but thinking that people throughout the world were basically the same. 

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And the students were nicer. The students were just nicer.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And don’t get me wrong, I mean, I enjoyed – no, I actually did not enjoy Chapel Hill – I didn’t enjoy Duke very much because, as I say, I was one of the first 50 Black people at Duke. And [inaudible][00:06:43] I always said I never wanted to be the first – you don’t wanna be the first Black guy. And I told my brother this, I told my son this. You wanna to get another Black guy in, kick him around, and so when you get there – I’m Robert, I didn’t even know I was Bob until I got in college, ‘cause I’d say “Hi I’m Robert” and [Inaudible] “Hi Bob.” My brother was – yeah. Because nobody calls you Bob.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I didn’t know that Richard was Dick.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah, yeah. 

  Dr. Robert Hines: You know. And my younger brother was Alonso, and he was saying the same thing. He said back in Rocky Mount was, like, “Hey there, Alonso.” And he got to Chapel Hill and it was, “Hi, Al.” And it was much more comradery. And there was less, one of those words, less exclusivity. 

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And the people were much more inviting here. And I think Duke tried, but Duke was very much class conscious.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And I don’t like tell a whole lot of people but, you don’t wanna be the first Black guy. You really don’t wanna be the first Black guy.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And when you see those people who, it’s like with Wilt Chamberlin, with Bill Russell, with those people who went first, they always, well I shouldn’t say always, but for the most part they still have that tinge of anger with them.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And the people who go to Chapel Hill don’t.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And I know that I still – I remember those times at Duke. I remember those times when from east campus to west campus, you know, and where you have some classes in west campus was mostly guys and east campus was girls, and there would be times when you’re running for the bus and the bus pulls off.

  Herman Freeman: Oh. Now, I know what you’re getting at.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. And when I got here because I was here two years for graduate school, and then I was here four years for med school. And I always felt more at home here.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: You can’t find that at a lot of places. And, that’s it. 

  Herman Freeman: Thank you for that answer.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And the same in class. Because one of the things that happened, you know, you didn’t – lots of times even the times when someone would ask a question, a teacher, you’re trying to, you know, give an answer, and I noticed that when I got here the teacher or the professor or whoever, if you started to answer, they didn’t cut you off. That happened quite a bit at Duke. To the point that you don’t even answer.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. So, that leads us to my question. What was it like being one of the few Black people in your class? Did you often think about that? And if so, why?

  Dr. Robert Hines: I’m laughing because this is what I just say to everybody, my son went to Morehouse, which is all Black, because I had gone to Duke which was all white. And when he finished and I told him, I said, “I’m not saying that the school is any better,” I said, “because people are pretty much the same everywhere.” I said, “But in college there’s certain things that you’re gonna want. You wanna get a good education, but you also wanna be happy.” And I remember his second year at Morehouse he said, “Dad, thanks for recommending Morehouse.” He said, “Because for the first time since I started school,” he said, “the people treated me like I was just like everybody else.” And he said, “I was getting called on just like everybody else.” And he said that – because I noticed the same thing. If someone asked me a question and I answered, and if I was correct, they just said, “Okay.” And if my classmate beside me, whose name might’ve been something like Van, ‘cause you don’t see a lot of us whose name’s that, you know, white guy, and they say, “Good answer.” I never saw or heard a Black student in all the time I was at Duke in over four years where they said, “Good answer.”

  But then when I got to Chapel Hill, I did. And I’ve had that conversation with my son, and it was the same with him, ‘cause he said that even in junior high and high school, because if someone would ask me and I give the answer and they say, “Okay.” And whoever was sitting beside say what would happen and they give the same answer, they say, “That’s good answer.”

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And one of the ways that I sorta put that to a test, I was an English major and my freshman year lots of times in freshman English you get a lot of essays, you know. And what happen was I do an essay and there was a fellow who was a couple years ahead of me and he was an English major. He was actually honors English. And I was telling him, I said – I thought I was pretty good. I told him that, I said, “No matter what I do I never get anything more than a B.” And he was from Princeton, New Jersey. And he couldn’t believe me. And he said, “Well, I tell you what.” And I said, “It’s because I’m Black.” He said, “No, it’s not.” I said, “It is.” And he said, “I’ll tell you what,” and he was honors English, he said, “I’m going to do a paper.”

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: He said, “Next assignment you get, I’m going write the paper and you will submit it.” And guess what?

  Herman Freeman: What?

  Dr. Robert Hines: He got a B.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: That paper got a B.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And that’s the thing, and, you know, I’ve not told that to five people in 50 years. That’s when I knew that there were certain things that weren’t gonna change.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Duke was actually – most people don’t – the last school in the ACC to get a Black basketball player was Duke. 

  Herman Freeman: I didn’t know that.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Duke was one of the last schools, I think there might’ve been another one, but it was Duke. It was either, I’m trying to remember Duke or South Carolina, but I think it was 7th of 8 schools. Duke didn’t take Black basketball players.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And if you were on the team, there was a fellow, C. B. Clayton, and C. B., he was all conference back in Virginia. He came here, went out for the team, he made team, but he was seldom on the floor.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: To me, I’ve always said you wanna come while it’s fully segregated or fully integrated. At that time where you’re melting and you’re meshing, no. Duke was not that place. And even when Krzyzewski came – South Carolina, believe it or not, as I remember, South Carolina I think had Black players before Duke. Yeah. 

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Chapel Hill was different. And actually, what we did my first couple years, if someone came, like, I think – what we did was, Michigan came. Michigan had Black players. Duke didn’t have Black players.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And, you know, now K wanted to win. K had come from West Point.

  Herman Freeman: I think, was it the Fab Five?

  Dr. Robert Hines: That was Michigan.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: When they played Duke. They did a ESPN special on that. I remember looking at that. Yeah. Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And that really was Duke. And I remember someone said to me long ago, they said that the worst racist was an educated one. I had never thought about it before that. But then I started looking at the way things happened. And so, when my son came along, and he was thinking about it and he asked me, he said, “Dad, if you had it to do over, what would you do?” I said, “I’d go to a Black school initially.” I said, “Then graduate school, I’d go to an integrated school.” And so, he went to Morehouse undergrad. And he asked me, he said, “What would determine it?’ He said, “The school would have to be really good academically and it needs to have pretty girls.” And here his mother was, like, “Did you tell him that?” I said, “Yes, I did.” The other thing was that, and you don’t wanna put this in there because Duke didn’t have the prettiest women. I’m talking about white women. They weren’t pretty. I said, “But you wanna be at a place that has pretty girls.”

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And Duke didn’t. But, no, Duke was – I’m happy to see where Duke is now, because my son went to Duke for law school. But he had gone to Morehouse undergrad. And he loved Morehouse ‘cause he said he’d never seen so many beautiful Black women. And the thing that he said was that he had never seen so many brilliant Black guys. And he liked it.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Now, Chapel Hill, I remember, Dean Smith. He was ahead of his time in so many ways because what Dean Smith did was Charlie Scott. I was at Duke when Charlie Scott, ‘cause Charlie Scott was, like, his first Black guy. And what Dean did, somebody said something to Scott or about Scott. Dean was gonna go up in the stands. I’m serious. And K was, and I can’t put it all on K – 

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: – but I think Duke is a different place than it was then.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: The reason that Duke took Black students, because Duke was, you know, Duke was taking people who did not get into Harvard and Yale. And Duke was, you know, the Duke family was, you know, they was rich rich. And so, they didn’t really need a lot of federal money. Probably the biggest reason that Duke actually started taking federal money was because had they not done it, they weren’t gonna get – had they taken Black students, they weren’t gonna get federal funds. That is not written, but that’s what happened. Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Interesting.

  Dr. Robert Hines: It was not a fun place.

  Herman Freeman: Thank you for sharing all of that with me. I couldn’t imagine what that felt like.

  Dr. Robert Hines: It was Hell.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And then, what they had was the KAs. KAs, they were basically – it was a frat.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: They would – 

  Herman Freeman: Kappa Alpha.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. And they were just regular white boys. And the thing is what they used to do a lot of times is just beat the – you know, like, they just beat guys up for fun. 

  Herman Freeman: Really?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. Until we got there.

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: You know, ‘cause somebody called one of the brothers a nigger. And that was all it took because, you know, then there was, you know – it’s, like, we’re gonna take them on.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And when they realized that, we had some kinda crazy things, you know.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: It was, like, “No, you can’t mess with me.” You know. One of things I always promised myself, I was gonna have a hard time speaking sleeping knowing a white boy had beaten [Inaudible]. And I think that was kinda the mindset that we had. Plus, the thing that you learned was that unless or until you showed the administration that you weren’t going to take it, they weren’t gonna really do anything. And what happened also was that, you know, they had these kind of wimpy guys, but we had guys who, you know – like, there was this phrase “when you ain’t got nothing, you ain’t got nothing to lose”. And what they felt was that because they had “given us an education” that we should just take it, but what they didn’t say was that the only reason that Duke took Black [inaudible] students was because absent that, they were not going to get any federal funds. That was the only reason they took us.   

  I mean, I remember there was [inaudible] went to Davidson, I think it was Malloy. They had Black players and Duke didn’t. That’s why, like, with your generation, I mean, like, you or, like, with my son, ‘cause my son asked me, ‘cause he said, “Dad,” he said, “If you had it to do over, where would you go?” And I said, “I’d go to a school that was integrated.” I said, “But one thing it had to have –”

  Herman Freeman: Dr. Hines, you said it already. Probably like three or four times.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yeah. Because, you know, you had to have pretty girls.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. I hear you. For the fourth time for emphasis

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yes. Yes. I mean, as I told you, guys said, the only difference between girls and dogs was that the girls didn’t bark. 

  Herman Freeman: Oh, my God.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I was, like, that is so cold. Yeah, but that is true, I do repeat myself.

  Herman Freeman: All right. So, one more question from your perspective as a Black student.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Yes.

  Herman Freeman: Did you ever feel imposter syndrome?

  Dr. Robert Hines: You mean, like, I shouldn’t have been there?

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: You mean, did I ever feel it or was I ever made to feel that way? I mean, I know what you’re saying. But, yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh, you mean, like, when you’re walking into class and the instructor says good morning to everybody but you?

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. Yeah. 

  Dr. Robert Hines: Quite often, quite often. 

  Herman Freeman: Enough said. 

  Dr. Robert Hines: See, what most people don’t know is that, yeah, Duke was the last school, Clemson was in the ACC – 

  Herman Freeman: Remember how you said that before, too.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I know, but that’s why I – oh, are you still recording?

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t know you were still recording.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Dr. Robert Hines: But, yeah, that was the thing. And we were here so that they did get the money and you knew it. But, yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. Okay. Next up, we have a couple more questions.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Okay.

  Herman Freeman: So, what was residency like compared to medical school?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Medical school I was already married. Residency, you mean, living here, or – 

  Herman Freeman: Yeah. So, just your experience as far as educational residency versus medical school.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Oh. In medical school I was married while I was in medical school for the most part.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And medical school was so much – socially, it was much, much better. And actually, I enjoyed medical school much, much more because I felt that for the first time it was, like, okay, I’m learning something and at some point I will be able to help somebody.

  Herman Freeman: Right.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And so, I loved it. Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Okay. Got you. Got you. Next, so what is the most and least rewarding aspect of your career in the present?

  Dr. Robert Hines: In my career?

  Herman Freeman: Yes.

  Dr. Robert Hines: The most rewarding has been my ability to make a difference in people’s lives, and to know one of the main reasons I did surgery rather than internal medicine or family practice was because in surgery you see your results. If you’re going to have someone that you can make an improvement on, you’re gonna see that within, you know, usually, lots of times within a day or two.

  Herman Freeman: Right.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Somebody comes in with let’s say a kidney stone and you can remove that stone. Someone comes in and they can’t urinate. Someone has a tumor, and you can remove it, or you can change it to the point that you can see then and there – 

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: – that you have improved their condition then and their long-term outlook. And that was one of the biggest reasons that I actually decided to do surgery.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: Because if you’re doing something, let’s say, someone has heart failure, it takes much longer for you to see the difference. And I wanted to be able to know before they left the hospital that they would be doing better.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And that was one of the most rewarding things for me. 

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: And to know that, you know, they could be like everybody else.

  Herman Freeman: Thank you. Two more questions. So, next up, how does being a Black physician, matter in your workplace, family, and community?

  Dr. Robert Hines: As far as being rewarding, I don’t know if I can even put that into words in the sense that – well, I’ll put it like this, knowing that if someone comes in and they have a problem, and easiest thing to do, like a kidney stone, someone – no, no. [Inaudible][00:26:03]. As a urologist, I had those fellows who would be getting up to urinate five or six times a night. And then, I say, “Okay, I think we can improve that.” And I know they have a large prostate. Let’s say they come into the hospital on Monday, I do the surgery on Tuesday, and I leave the catheter in until Wednesday. And, let’s say that, okay, two days after I do the surgery, I’m removing the catheter. And then, two weeks from that time they’re peeing like they did five and 10 years ago. They’re not getting up four or five times a night. They’re not urinating on themselves. They can control their urine. And they can take longer trips. They can get back to that life and lifestyle that they had five, 10, 20 years ago. That was one of the most rewarding things for me with that.

  And the other thing was as a urologist, I did a lot of ED, erectile dysfunction. And so, at one point I was told I was one of the top 100 penile implant surgeons in the country.

  Herman Freeman: Okay.

  Dr. Robert Hines: I put a lot of implants in. So, you know.

  Herman Freeman: Yeah.  

  Dr. Robert Hines: Well, anyway, but the thing that I’m saying is to know, because as men, we equate so much of our manhood with our ability to get an erection. And so, when you get a guy, be he Black, white, Asian, Indian, once they’re no longer able to perform sexually, then the way that they view themselves is totally different. But once you get them back to the point where they can feel like they can do what they did five, 10, 20 years ago, their whole perception of themselves as men changes. It goes back from like that fellow who’s feeling sorry for himself because he’s 60, 70 years old, or 50 years old, especially if he’s diabetic, and he can no longer, as they say, “please his wife.” And then, you get him to the point where he can basically perform like he did when he was 35, there’s nothing like it. 

  Herman Freeman: Wow.

  Dr. Robert Hines: You have fellows who are crying, “I never thought I could do this again.” Yeah. And so, that was really, really – it brought me a joy that, it’s kinda hard to explain – 

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: – because as men, we equate our ability to produce erections and perform sex, we equate that with our manliness. And once men can’t do it, they think of themselves as less of a man.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir.

  Dr. Robert Hines: It’s kinda crazy, but that’s the way we are.

  Herman Freeman: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And one more question. What advice would you give to current Black medical students?

  Dr. Robert Hines: Be as prepared as you can before you get to medical school, do as well as you can while you’re in, and then once you finish and you’re in practice, race, creed, and color should not matter. At the same time that race, creed, and color should not matter, unless you’re in an academic situation, then chances are that you’re going to be treating more people who look like you. And one of the things that my father told me, he said, “What I want you to always remember is that anytime you treat anyone, it’s not just you,” he said, “you are representing everybody who looks like you.” And he said, “You remember that with everybody you see, everybody you touch, everybody you talk to.” 

  And I remember when he said that, I was thinking, “That sounds a little corny.” But at the same time, over the years, and actually it didn’t even take that long because what you found was that people – everybody who you know that you’ve done the best you could for someone, and they know that – actually, we had this phrase that we said “we’re gonna treat everybody like they were white folk”. But that was the thing. Yeah. Like, as I say, you can say this, the best advice I ever got, he said, “You treat –” no, my mother, she said, “You treat everybody as if they’re a family member of yours regardless of race, creed, or color.” And that’s the way I tried to basically conduct myself. Yeah.

  Herman Freeman: Well, I appreciate that. That concludes our interview. Thank you for taking time to come down and talk to me. 

  [End of Audio]

  Duration: 31 minutes

   

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About

Dr. Robert Hines was born on May 5, 1949, in Rocky Mount, NC. He was the fourth of six children and raised in a loving home by his parents. With the occupations of a concrete finisher and maid respectively, his father and mother ensured their children were always supported and aspired to higher education. From an early age he was inspired by his father’s intellect and his insatiable desire to learn. For his undergraduate degree he attended Duke University on a full scholarship and was one of the first 50 Black students to attend the institution. Despite his excellent high school transcript and his commitment to his education, Dr. Hines faced numerous instances of discrimination. His experiences ranged from bus drivers leaving stops before he could board busses to professors giving him lower marks on English papers no matter what he tried. Afterward, he went to UNC for graduate school and then medical school in the Class of 1978. He fondly remembers his time at UNC which he calls: “the southern part of Heaven”. While at school, he found his educators were incredibly supportive and sought to acknowledge his successes. It was also during his time as a UNC medical student where he first heard of urology and found his calling. Dr. Hines was drawn to the diversity a singular field could provide with a combination of both surgery and clinical care. As he continued practicing and caring for patients, he was able to appreciate the interconnectedness of his work and impact on his patients. He was struck by the profound realization that no matter one’s background or race, we were all connected by our health and how it could drastically alter how we view ourselves. Not only does he take his patient care seriously, but Dr. Hines continues to help other minority students enter the medical field and make sure they have access to resources and knowledge that he didn’t at a younger age.