Dr. David Gaston

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  Dr. Necochea: Very well. Welcome, Dr. Gaston. Today is Monday the fifth of December of 2022. This is Dr. Raul Necochea from the UNC School of Medicine Department of Social Medicine, and I’m speaking with Dr. David Gaston. Hello, Dr. Gaston. Welcome.

  Dr. Gaston: Hello. Glad to be here.

  Dr. Necochea: Thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview for the Black Alumni Experience Project at the UNC School of Medicine. We really appreciate all of our alumni’s help to document and get a better sense of what it was like to be an African American medical student in the 1960s and the 1970s. So, we’re really happy you’re here.

  Dr. Gaston: Thank you.

  Dr. Necochea: To begin, Dr. Gaston, would you please tell us the year in which you were born and where were you born?

  Dr. Gaston: I was born in June 8, 1954 in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Yep.

  Dr. Necochea: Did you grow up, also, in Winston-Salem?

  Dr. Gaston: Yes, sir. I sure did. I was born there. Raised there. Went to college there. And so, I went to Chapel Hill for medical school. I did a few other training courses in a few other places. Meharry, I did a course there for the summer. A couple summers there. But generally, all of my education, everything is in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

  Dr. Necochea: When you were growing up in Winston-Salem, Dr. Gaston, who did you grow up with?

  Dr. Gaston: Well, my mom and dad were divorced. But, I have two brothers, two sisters, and we grew up in the projects in Winston-Salem. Forsyth County. And, we went to the regular public schools. Winston-Salem, Forsyth County. And, yeah. We were just regular kids.

  Dr. Necochea: Would you mind if I ask you when you were in school, were schools in Winston-Salem already fully integrated?

  Dr. Gaston: Initially, they were not fully integrated. Initially, the schools were – I don’t know if they were intentionally segregated, but the people went to school in their neighborhood. So, most of us lived in Black neighborhoods. Like, where I lived, it was in the Black neighborhood, so I went to a predominantly Black school. There were a few kids, however, that did go to “White schools” if they were close by or in that vicinity. 

  And then, there were some who later went to “White schools” depending on when they got to high school age because the particular high school they were in may not have been close enough. So, they went to the “White school.” And, some of them, maybe by preference. I don’t know exactly. Maybe by preference, they just went there. But now, eventually, the state of North Carolina – I don’t know if it was the whole state. It certainly wasn’t Forsyth County schools. Somewhere around high school age, Forsyth County schools decided that the schools would be fully integrated.

  So, if you were living in a predominantly Black neighborhood, it’s likely you’d be bussed to a predominantly white school. If you were in a predominantly White school, you’d be bussed to a Black school. To keep the ratio of something like I think 20% a minority, I think. Something like that. So, all the schools were integrated by the time I got to – Let’s see now. That would certainly by the time I got to senior high school, all the schools in Winston-Salem, Forsyth County were fully and completely integrated.

  And so, they had bussing from one place to the other. And, I actually was going to Reynolds High School before they had the regulations started, which is a predominantly White school because it happened to be closer. So, I went to that school. But then, when they integrated, when they had this forced bussing, they actually put me in another school across the county. Across the county. Which I didn’t wanna go because I’m sometimes not necessarily on time. So, if you miss a bus, you’re out of luck because if your family doesn’t have a car, you’re out of luck.

  So, I preferred to walk to Reynolds. Even though it was a 30 minute walk, I preferred to walk to Reynolds. Take my own time, and it made me healthy, as well. So, no big deal. I just walked around. But, once they were bussed, I found myself on the bus, and that was kinda a problem. So, I begged, and pleaded, and did all kinds of things, and they finally put me back at Reynolds. And so, I went to maybe the better school. Maybe. 

  But anyway, I wound up going back to Reynolds. Besides, I’d been used to Reynolds anyway, and the people were nice. And so, there wasn’t a big deal. And, the other schools were eventually fully integrated. And so, certainly by senior high school, there was no such thing as a Black school or a White school, or anything like that. They were all fully integrated. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Right. Wow. Also, when you were young and of school age, who do you remember as being the person or persons who were most influential for you?

  Dr. Gaston: Let’s see. A lot of persons in the neighborhood influenced me a lot and they were good people, but they were mostly friends and people like that. I think probably the church people probably had the greatest influence on me because – Oh, yeah. My good friend Norville Gadiedison. I went to his church, and his church pastor got me enrolled in Bible study and things like that, and I wound up getting into the Bible and things like that. 

  That made me interested in science. When you read the Bible, you kinda start getting interested in God. You’re interested in God, you start getting interested in God’s universe. So, I started getting more interested in biology and things like that. So, I started becoming more science oriented sometime around that time. And then, I became a Seventh-day Adventist. And then, there were a lot of people there that had a lot of influence on me because you kinda learn a lot of moral things, and about what to do with your life, and all this.

  And so, yeah. We kinda learned a lot, and we had quite a lot of structure there. And so, we learned a lot about God’s laws. Things like that. And so, by learning those, you tend to add some structure to your life, and you tend to think a certain way. Plus, you get interested in reading more, and you start getting interested in studying things. More things like that. When they translate the Bible during Reformations, then came the Renaissance. So, the Bible tends to inspire people to start reading and studying, and things like that.

  So, I started to probably become a little more studious. But, I always had good grades. I just wasn’t sure. If you’re in school, you learn. That’s just what you do. You go to school, the teacher teaches, you sit there. Not that I had a purpose. The purpose was to pass and get good grades. That was the purpose. So, it wasn’t like I was planning on going and being a doctor as my purpose in life. In fact, I didn’t plan to be a doctor. I just planned to be a good student.

  And so, by the time graduation came around, I realized, “Oh, wait a minute. What am I gonna do now? I won’t be a student anymore.” So, it’s like being a student was the end goal. Being a student, getting the right grades, and as a long as you do that, you’re happy in life. And, so much for that. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Did you know physicians growing up? Any of them who played a role in showing you what the profession might be like?

  Dr. Gaston: Not really. I remember when I decided to go to medical school, I guess I had to get an exam. And, I went to the family doctor. I guess you’d call him that. They didn’t see us very much. We never got sick. Nobody ever got sick or anything. So, we didn’t really go. I guess we had to get our shots and things like that for vaccinations and things like that. And so, you had to go there, but I don’t remember much of that.

  And, some of these were done through the school, or the Health Department, or something. So, you didn’t really have to have a family doctor that much. And, we never got sick either. So, if we did get sick, we just accepted it. You had a cold or something. Well, that’s just it. And so, we really didn’t see many doctors. Almost no exposure at all.

  And so, when I did go to have to have my physical, I think probably for medical school, if not for something else, the doctor there, he said, “Oh, you’re gonna go to medical school.” And, I remember there was a man in the waiting room. There were only a couple. That were actually White men. He was Black, and there were some folks. He took an awful long time with me. I don’t know if he was stalling to have to deal with them. I’m not sure. But, they just patiently waited. 

  And, he did an exam, which wasn’t very thorough, perhaps considering what I know now. But anyway, he did an exam, and signed my papers, and we talked. He was happy I was going to medical school and everything. And, he was very respectable in the community and everything like that. And, you always look up to the doctor ‘cause he’s a doctor. You never really consider them to be a part of your world. They’re too far away. They’re kinda like high up. But, he talked to me, and we talked, and so forth. 

  And then, there was one doctor that was an optometrist that influenced me, too. But, by that time, I was already going to medical school. But, he always gave us glasses and all that. And, my mom used to go over there. It was right across from the grocery store. So, we’d go there, and he’d give us our glasses and take care of that. And, in later years, since my mom was living in a smaller house, he actually had us – my family, he wanted us to come and stay with him for Christmas. Yeah. He said, “Why don’t you come over here?”

  So, we all went over there. And so, he was always inviting us to his house for Christmas because he didn’t have any kids, I think. And also, his wife, they didn’t have any kids. And so, I think that we may have been helping them more than helping us. Maybe. But, they had a nice house. A big house. Much better than what we had. And, we stayed over there, and we’d chat. 

  And then, some of my people that influenced me: my schoolteachers influenced me. They were very good, the schoolteachers. They were really good people, and I kinda feel bad that I haven’t shown them – ‘Cause some of them may have passed away or something. But, they were good teachers. I had very good teachers. They were good human beings. And, I remember my teacher in the sixth grade, he influenced me. But, he was just teaching the class.

  And then, I had my professors in college. They were all very good. My biology professor was very good. My philosophy professor especially. He was very good. I wish he’d not died of a heart attack. To this day, I would’ve benefitted by him. He suggested I not go into medicine. He thought I should be a philosopher. He thought I should go into philosophy. He said his brother was a surgeon and it was a nasty area. I would be better in philosophy, which is cleaner. 

  He was a graduate of Princeton. And actually, sometimes Albert Einstein would walk from the Institute of Advanced Studies at Princeton across campus below his dormitory. So, he’d see Professor Einstein take his evening walks and so forth. So, he was at Princeton when apparently some of the very good philosopher people were at Princeton. And so, he thought I should be a philosopher. We’d talk sometimes about various things. And together, the two of us, with him being in philosophy and me, we really had a ball. He helped me. I helped him grade his papers, too. He had my help grade his papers. We had a very good time. And so, yeah. He influenced me a lot. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Yeah. Wow. That’s interesting. Going back a little bit in time, as you were finishing high school, you mentioned that your goal up to that point had been simply to be a good student, right?

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Not flunk. Never flunk. Yeah. Always get good grades. Always get the answers. Study. And, make sure you know what’s going on.

  Dr. Necochea: Were you interested in college at the time?

  Dr. Gaston: At the time, I hadn’t thought about it that much. In fact, when I took an aptitude – Not aptitude. I took a course. They had a little test to see what you should do in life. I thought I would be a secretary ’cause I did a course in typing, and I said, “Oh, I’m a good typist. I can type.” And, I’d sort of be, like, a secretary ‘cause I thought about that.

  And then, I think I was doing well in writing. To this day, I’ve already written a couple of books, too. But, I’ve been so busy practicing medicine, I haven’t had a chance to do a whole lot except write the books, and I’ve gotten some published. And, there’s a novel that’s gonna come out I think around September. Something like that. 

  So, I would be good as a writer. I’d be good as [inaudible] [00:14:55]. But, college, I never actually thought about. And, even in high school, I really wasn’t that interested that much in science, exactly. But, it seems like, again, after I read the Bible more and more, I started being interested in science because when you’re interested in God, you start getting interested in God’s universe. And so, something came over me, and I got very interested in science. And, in fact, when i was in biology, I used to get into little arguments against evolution, and so forth, and we would talk about that. He would go with that.

  And so, I wasn’t that excited about biology. But somehow, I started getting interested in science. So, in high school, I planned to do my major in biology. Biology and chemistry. And, I did well with that. So, as it turns out, I kinda fit pretty well into that, and biology became my favorite subject. And then, going to biology, you go into biology, well what are you gonna do? Well, medicine is the obvious final thing to do. You could just be a scientist, but you always think of something. So, we decided to go from biology to medicine.

  And, there are all kinds of good people at Winston-Salem State University that if they thought you were interested in medicine, they would really go overboard to help you. And so, there were so many people. I’m telling you. Winston-Salem State University. I owe them so much. They got me into pre-medical programs. They introduced me to all kinds of things. All kinds. They were very, very, very good to me. 

  And so, I wound up getting interested in medicine, and they were helping. They helped a lot. They made sure that I had everything. But, they wanted me to go to Bowman Gray, which is in Winston-Salem. Because in fact, the professor of microbiology, he actually had some ties with Bowman Gray ‘cause I think he must’ve taught or worked in microbiology at Bowman Gray or something. And so, they tried to get me there. But, I think I overestimated myself a little bit there because they were like, “You’re sure to get there because this professor will definitely get you in.”

  And so, when I had my interview, I don’t think I was doing my best effort because I could’ve dressed better or something. And so, I guess I was a little overly confident, and that’s one of the only schools that rejected me. I think I was a little overly confident and maybe I should’ve been a little – But then, that may have been the first one, too. So, maybe it was good for me to get an idea of what they’re gonna ask or something.

  But, yeah. So, yeah. And, college just made me more and more interested in medical school. And, they had the special program with University of North Carolina so that you could do your first year in medical school as your last year in college. Yeah. So, I actually went to medical school one year early because after my third year in college, they had a program worked out so that once I finished my first year of medical school, they would consider it part of my BA degree in biology. Yeah. 

  Really. I can’t begin to tell you how much I owe to Winston-Salem State University. They were some good people. Really good people. And, I haven’t paid them back in kind because I’ve been too busy with medical. I’ve just had no time to pay them back what I should in terms of time. But, yes. They were very instrumental.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. Right. Indeed. Oh. That is very interesting. Yeah. Once you made the decision to go to Winston-Salem State, I was wondering how you financed that college education experience?

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, it was very good. It was very good. They wanted me to stay on campus. In fact, they offered me a full scholarship if I stayed on campus. Yeah. They’re very good. They said, “You’ll stay on campus. But, in order for you to get the scholarship, you have to stay on campus.” And, to show you how silly I was – I was young. You would’ve looked at me and gone, “How could you have been so silly?” Well, to show you how silly I was, because of the stipulation to stay on campus, I rejected it because I said, “I’d prefer to stay at home with my mommy.” Why should I stay on campus when I can live at home in my own bed? Which I’d grown accustomed to. And besides, I wasn’t that gung-ho on sleeping outside of my home.

  And so, I just said, “Well, no. I think I will just do as I am.” But then, again, Dr. Patterson, my philosophy professor, I think he got a kick out of that, and that’s part of the reason we were good friends ‘cause I guess one thing he liked me is ‘cause he knew that I was an independent thinker. I wasn’t gonna just bought off. So, that may have been the reason ‘cause whenever I see him, he says, “So, you rejected that scholarship? Yeah?” And so, yeah. We would sometimes talk. And, we’d talk religion. We’d talk philosophy. We’d talk. 

  And, he always told me his inner most emotional concerns about the students. The students weren’t studying and they weren’t doing this. Weren’t doing that. He was depressed about it. And, he’d tell me about it, and I would quote some philosopher. Like, there was an Indian philosopher I quoted. Rabindranath Tagore. And, that made him feel much better. Whenever I’d see him, he’d look at me and he’d quote Rabindranath Tagore back. And, I gave him a poster that had a nice picture on it with some saying by Rabindranath Tagore. And so, whenever he’d see me, he would look at me, and smile, and quote that quote. But, he really was very encouraging. 

  And, the church was always behind me. They kinda considered me their little mascot. So, they were always helping and everything. And, there were so many people that kinda were so motivational. It’s amazing how many people helped me. I look back on it. There were so many people right then when I was younger. And so, it may be they may have realized I was kinda like a [inaudible] [00:22:04] child. But, they were more than helpful in helping me to actually think clearly and everything. It’s amazing how well they did that. 

  Folks would take me home from church and everything. It was amazing. They’d invite me to dinner every Sabbath. Every Saturday. It’s amazing how many people in my life that were just too good to me. It’s amazing. It’s truly amazing. Even when I went to the medical school, they would invite me home for dinner and everything on Sabbath. On Saturday. And, I was just overwhelmed by people who were always helping.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, nice. Oh. Yeah. What a nice community that was surrounding you.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, it was great. It was wonderful. I’m gonna tell you, I owe a lot of people a lot of things, and I have not paid them back. I’ve been so busy practicing medicine, I have not done what I would wish I could’ve done to all the people who really helped me because I’m just too bogged down with responsibilities and I just could not get away from this medical thing.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. No, I get it. It’s a busy life.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. It’s true.

  Dr. Necochea: I have another question just to connect more dots. You mentioned that in your last year, there was something like an enrichment program to help you transition already into a medical program, correct?

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, yes. Yes.

  Dr. Necochea: And, that was a program that was run by Winston-Salem State? 

  Dr. Gaston: Well actually, Winston-Salem State got me involved – Actually, after my first year and maybe the second, or maybe it was the second and third – After my first or second year in college, they got me enrolled in the Meharry Medical School summer program. Yeah. Meharry Medical School is one of the – There were two predominantly Black medical schools in the country. One is Meharry and the other’s Howard. And so, I think Howard had a program, but Meharry had a program. And so, I went to Meharry Medical School Program. They got me enrolled in that.

  So, I was there for the summer. They actually pay you just like the programs in UNC. They pay you at the end of the summer for being there. ‘Cause they figured a lot of minority students would have to work in order to get money to pay for school and stuff like that. And so, they said, “Okay. We’re gonna give you money so you don’t have to work. And so, all you have to do is come to class, and listen and learn.” 

  And so, I said, “Oh, that’s fine.” So, I went there. And, they had some great professors. They had great people. They must’ve had something with the Catholic church because a lot of the teachers were nuns. Yeah. They had professors who were nuns. In fact, the professor of mathematics, she was a nun, and she had a PhD. Well, not all of them were nuns. Actually, one of the persons shared a Nobel Prize in immunology with Nobel Prize, but he taught chemistry. But, the professor of physics was a nun. They didn’t teach religion. They didn’t say anything about religion. It was all mathematics and physics. 

  But, they were nuns. So, they may have made some kinda deal that they could get a lower price for these nuns to come over and teach ‘cause in Europe, the monasteries were the source of learning. A lot of very prestigious schools grew up around the monasteries ‘cause the monks and nuns had time to actually read and study. And so, that’s why all these prestigious universities in Europe rose out of monasteries. So, I think the monks, and nuns, and people like that tend to be good teachers ‘cause they have time to learn. They don’t have to go home. They don’t have to do anything. They don’t have a wife. They don’t have kids. They don’t have anybody.

  All they need to do is read and study. That’s all they need to do. So, they seem to be good teachers, I believe. In my limited experience, that seems to be the case. So, yeah. These were nuns. And, except again, the professor of chemistry, I don’t think he was a church person. I’m not sure about it. He didn’t strike me. He wasn’t “worldly, worldly.” They were all very good, and they treated us very well. They were very nice to us. It’s amazing how well they did with us.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Okay. Right. Interesting. I imagine, also, that the program that Meharry runs that you participated in, well, its goal would’ve been also to recruit promising candidates to enroll, right?

  Dr. Gaston: Yes. That’s correct. And, what happened is they have promising candidates and they wanted to make sure that we got quality education and that we were actually capable of being successful, and things like that. So, when we did go to medical school, we would be able to kinda blend in and do everything. And, especially if some of us were a little bit deprived and maybe our neighborhood wasn’t necessarily a highly educational neighborhood, they provided an educational environment so that we could think more academic and so forth. And, if there was anything we were missing, they fixed it. Yeah. They definitely fixed it.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. And yet, at the end of it, still, you applied to several other medical schools in addition to Meharry, correct?

  Dr. Gaston: Well, the only one I went to was Meharry. That’s the only one. And then, Winston State. And then, I applied to the summer program at UNC. So, those are the three programs I went to. I haven’t gone to any of the rest of them. Those are the only three I went to. I went to Meharry on the summer. And, Winston-Salem State was my college. And then, I went to UNC for pre-medical. Well, for the summer program, and also for medical school.

  Dr. Necochea: Okay. Right. The MED program.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Yes. Which was excellent. Which is superb. Again, I cannot tell you how many people I owe a huge debt to. And, the MED program at UNC, I owe those folks so much. Really, they were very instrumental, and they were some of the best. The teachers were the best. They were highly motivated. They were interested in the students. They were top in terms of their understanding of the subject. They didn’t just teach. They actually lived what they were teaching. 

  And, some of them were so inspiring. Like, Ross Montgomery. He actually taught in the dental school at UNC. But, he taught the medical students anatomy. The gross anatomy for the medical students. And, his very way of talking, his manner, his everything was part of the course. Everybody wanted to be like Dr. Montgomery. And, what happened is that one of the students – I don’t know if I should tell you this. ‘Cause Dr. Montgomery has a very deep, southern, Virginia accent. 

  One of the medical students came to us. They warned us. They’d go, “First of all, you have to know that Dr. Montgomery is not a racist. He is not. So, don’t think of it. He’s not racist.” And, that’s the first thing. So, she made sure we didn’t – ‘Cause if you look at him and you don’t know him, you might think, “Oh, he talks like one of those people who doesn’t know Black people.” Or, something. But actually, he’s a very, very good person. Everyone loved him.

  And, I worked for him. Actually, I did research with him for a summer, and he’s just an excellent human being. And, he never smiled, though. He never smiled. I shouldn’t say that. There was one time he smiled. One time, I remember, he smiled. When he talked about anatomy, he’d throw some history in there. And, whenever he talks about anatomy, he told us stories, as well, in the middle like commercials. Kinda like how they used to do it in the golden age of anatomy.

  And, some of these stories were kinda humorous a little bit. And, he would tell these stories, and the class would be on the floor laughing. He would be standing there as if nothing happened. Not a smile. Except one day, he said, “They will never transplant a human brain. Never.” You have to hear Dr. Montgomery say it the way he says it. He says, “Never, ever.” And, one of the students raised his hand. He had a question, and Dr. Montgomery asked him, “What was your question?” He said, “Will they ever transplant a human brain?” And, he just stood there and froze for a moment, and I just saw a slight smile on his face like everybody could read his mind in the class. But, he didn’t say anything. 

  But, everybody could read his mind. It was like, “How could you be so stupid?” And, everybody laughed. Everyone fell out because when they saw that smile and how he responded. He just stood there. His mouth turned up a little bit in a smile. Everyone knew exactly what he was thinking. He was a great professor [inaudible] [00:32:20] and who else? Yeah. They were some of the best people. They’re unsurpassed. Yeah. Unsurpassed. They were just marvelous.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. That’s very cool. Oh. Right. That is funny. When you were applying to different medical schools, did anyone in particular encourage you or discourage you from applying to UNC?

  Dr. Gaston: Let’s see. I don’t think there was anyone that ever discouraged me from applying to UNC. The only medical school that anyone discouraged me from applying to was Loma Linda. They said they had a high attrition rate. The one thing they said about UNC is UNC was really motivated towards students. They invest in the students. They would try to make sure the student graduates. They would do whatever was in their power to make sure the student would learn what needed to be learned and that the student would graduate. 

  If you went to the University of North Carolina, they wouldn’t give you a grade, but they’d make sure you’d know what you were supposed to know. And, they’d make sure that you were able to be a good physician. And, they made sure that you would learn. One way or the other, you would learn. And so, I was very happy. And, I’d heard good things about UNC, and that’s one of the reasons. Also, it can be a little bit intimidating. Thinking about medical school is tough. Are you sure you can pass? Are you sure you’re gonna make it?

  And, the encouragement was that if you go to UNC, if you’re a student that studies hard and you put forth the effort, you’re gonna pass. They’re not gonna flunk you unless you’re just plain downright not trying to pass. But, if you try, you put forth the effort, you’re going to be a physician. So, that’s one of the things that UNC seemed to have a good name for. So, yeah. I’m gonna go there.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Nice. Can I ask you would you please repeat the name of that school that you had heard had a very high attrition rate? I didn’t catch it.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, Loma Linda. It’s a good medical school. It’s Seventh-day Adventist medical school like Bowman Gray is Baptist. The Baptists. Yeah. Loma Linda is a Seventh Adventist medical school, and a very good medical school. I’ve seen quite a few prominent people – It’s a university, actually. I think it’s a university. A university and they have a medical school, too. So, there you go. Also, the other reason I didn’t go there is that I didn’t have the money. That was the other thing. UNC gave me a scholarship, also. And so, I had a scholarship to go there. The other place did not have a scholarship. They had a higher attrition rate. 

  And also, UNC wasn’t far away from home. I could drive a few miles down the road and I’m in Chapel Hill. And so, to me, that was a better option all around. Although, some of the folks in the church, they would’ve preferred I go to Loma Linda. But, hey look, I’m proud of where I went. I’m glad of where I went. I’m very happy I went to UNC.

  Dr. Necochea: Loma Linda. Yes. Right. Yeah, it is. Okay. Oh. Oh, okay. Right. Glad to hear that. I’m happy you came here, too.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. A great school. A wonderful school. It’s one of the best. Superb.

  Dr. Necochea: When you started, do you remember how many other people were in your class?

  Dr. Gaston: Let’s see. I could be very far off, but somehow – That can’t be right, but somehow, 180 comes to mind. But, I don’t think that’s right. But somehow, I’m thinking of 180, but I could be wrong there ‘cause that’s kinda high, I think. [Inaudible] [00:36:23]. But, yeah. It was a large medical school. I think it was a nice number. There were at least about 20 Black folks in the class. Well, there wasn’t that. I can’t remember. There was maybe 20. Well anyway, I can’t remember exactly. My numbering is off.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Wow. Yeah. I’m counting. I have the numbers in front of me of how many – The Office of Alumni Affairs gave us the number of students who were African American and Native American in that class. Did you graduate with the class of 1979?

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, I did. Yes.

  Dr. Necochea: It was a good group. Let me count them for you. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. 18, and these are only the folks who filled out the contact form from the Alumni Affairs Office. So, almost 20. It’s a hefty group, especially considering where things were for UNC at the beginning of the ‘60s.

  Dr. Gaston: Yes. Yeah. UNC was very user friendly. It was very Black friendly. Speaking quite frankly, it was very friendly. You never know what people talk at the dinner table. I didn’t really care, either. People treated you very well. I was amazed how well people treated me. I don’t have a surgical personality. I’m more of a medical medicine type neurology thinking person. And so, if the surgeons weren’t exactly always as friendly, I always attributed that to the way surgeons are. Surgeons have a certain personality. Some people have a certain personality that fits their profession, and that’s just how they are. And, they treat everybody badly. 

  And, it’s not that they treated folks badly, but it’s just that they’re not chummy, chummy. And, none of the professors were chummy, chummy. They weren’t. But, some of them looked like they’re a little more – No one ever made you feel uncomfortable. No one. And, if you did your work and did what you were supposed to do, you fit in very well. I don’t remember anybody at all discriminating against me. I don’t remember anybody ever. 

  Now, some things I weren’t good at, myself, and I think they may have considered me a little bit low class in certain areas. Like, I never was good in OB gynecology, and I couldn’t figure that one out. And then, also pediatrics, because this was before I got married and had kids. So, I didn’t exactly know what was going on with the kids. The little kids, once they get a certain age, I guess I could do much with them. 

  But, delivery and things like that, I couldn’t really deal with that very much. So, they put me with the people with gynecological cancer, and I did well with that. But, delivering babies? That was not my forte. I wasn’t good at that. And, even later on, even my wife, she said later when we had our first child, she said I was worthless in the delivery room. I was worthless. She actually wanted me to yell and scream at the nurse to give her more pain medication, and I was kinda in a fog, myself. 

  And, I’m the kinda person who goes along and does what everybody is doing. When they know what they’re doing, I just kinda go always with it. I’m not gonna tell anybody how to do their job. But, my wife thought I should be more aggressive and tell them what to do, and I didn’t exactly tell them what to do. I just let them do their job, and she thought I should be more militant ‘cause when you’re delivering a baby, you’re kinda angry with everybody. “Why don’t you do this?” You’re having pain and everything trying to deliver. And so, you want somebody to kinda fight with you. And, I guess I wasn’t as aggressive as I should be.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Oh. That’s funny. That’s funny with you being a practicing neurologist and everything.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Well, what we do in neurology is think a lot. In those days, we were mostly the think machines. We would think more. We do more now because we do GPA and we do things. We do EMG. We do certain types of things now. But, in those days, we were the ones that were the ones that could think through things and come up with a diagnosis. This is just after CATSCANs were made. We were the CATSCANs. We were the ones for the problems in the brain by examining a patient. We didn’t have MRI scans. The CATSCAN just came out. And, until then, what a neurologist said was what was there. 

  So, as long as you can be reasonable and logical, that was good for me ‘cause I didn’t have to show anybody up or anything like that. Long as you know the brain. We could prove what we knew by the autopsy. We had to wait. Now, we do a CATSCAN so we can prove what’s in the brain. In those days, you had to wait for the autopsy. Then, you’d say the doctor was right or wrong. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Do you remember, well, besides Dr. Montgomery, who were people that you were close to at the school of medicine? Including not only professors, but students and maybe even administrators.

  Dr. Gaston: Let’s see. Edith McCrae was tough for everybody, but she was a professor that everybody just admired. We all admired her. And, I never worked with her in research. I never worked for her in research. I was a student and so forth, and she was very good. Very good. Very good teacher. And, let’s see. Who else? Oh, also one of the teachers who was in biochemistry. He was very nice, and he was very instrumental in everything. Everybody liked him. I can’t remember what his name was, though. In fact, I have his book. He wrote a book of biochemistry. Nutrition, I think. And, I have his book, still. I have his book. But, I don’t have it here, so I can’t remember his name.

  And then, we had – Let’s see. Who else? Oh, there was on teacher. Who was that? Was it biochemistry? Anatomy? Let’s see. Who was that? Oh, yes. Philips. Dr. Philips. He was very, very instrumental.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Philips. What did he teach?

  Dr. Gaston: Well, Dr. Philips was like a coordinator. And, what he did was, Dr. Philips, his function was basically to give psychotherapy to the students. 

  Dr. Necochea: Okay. Oh, Marion Philips.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Marion Philips. That’s right.

  Dr. Necochea: Yes. Of course. At the time, he would’ve been associate dean of – I can’t remember his exact title, but he would’ve been one of the higher administrators.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, I’m sorry. No, somebody just came in the room there. I’m sorry. What were you saying now? You said something.

  Dr. Necochea: I was just saying that Dr. Marion Philips would’ve been an associate dean. Like, one of the higher up administrators. I can’t remember what his exact title was, but he was high up.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was excellent. He was just superb. He would have sessions, like, every week with us, and he would basically talk to us. If anything, we had any concerns, he was always available to us. Marion Philips was just an excellent person and human being. There was another lady, too. I forget her name, but she worked with Dr. Philips, and she was one of the persons, also. And, between she and Dr. Philips, they really were very, very helpful. They were just unsurpassed. In fact, I’m a bit suspicious. I don’t think these people were born of the earth. I think they came from – They must’ve come from heaven. Somewhere. I don’t think they’re regular human beings. Really, these people were the best people on the earth. 

  So, the other lady who worked with him, and I can’t remember her name. But, yeah. They were very good in helping us. If we had any concerns, they were always there. They were always there. They were always available. In fact, it’s almost like they kinda wanted more work to do. It’s almost like we didn’t have enough problems to keep them happy. They were looking for trouble for us so they could solve a problem. I’m not sure about the other students. I’m not sure. Maybe it was just me. Maybe the others did have a lot of problems.

  But, I just saw them as being just so available and so helpful in so many ways. It was the perfect program. I’m probably not gonna be the best person you interview because somebody could look at mine and say, “He must’ve been paid off.” But really, quite frankly, I think they were just perfect people. They were just very good. Yeah. Dr. Philips was very good. He was always available. And, they always talked in a very – They were so unstressed. Really. 

  Maybe that’s not a good thing. Maybe medical school might think that they weren’t working them hard enough. Maybe they should stress them out some more ‘cause if you’re unstressed, it must mean that you’re not working enough, maybe. But, they were very available. They were always available. Yeah. Whenever you needed them.

  Dr. Necochea: That’s cool. Yeah. Wow. That is cool. Can you tell me about a time when you asked for help? If that’s okay.

  Dr. Gaston: Let’s see. Asked for help. There was a time that I think that I – Yeah. When I rotated on surgery, I think what happened is I don’t think my – Let’s see. I always scored well on exams. But, rotating in some of these areas was new to me. So, I had to kind of adjust. And so, the medical school was always ready to kinda help so you could adjust. Like, for example, since I wasn’t good at delivering babies, they allowed me to work in gynecological cancer in order to fulfill my requirements for that.

  And also, when it came to – Let’s see. What else? Surgery. Pediatrics. Oh, the newborns. I don’t think I was very good with the newborns, either. I don’t think I was the best with that. But, then it was the rotations. But, in terms of the scores, I scored well. And so, the medical school was always there and available to kinda help you. And so, we did well.

  Dr. Necochea: One of the things that medical students always, always comment on is just how –

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, the other one was psychiatry, too. Yeah. Rotating on psychiatry when I was in medical school. Psychiatry was a little bit strange because psychiatrists, some of them weren’t very human-like. And, I may have gotten into trouble to some extent from the get-go because when I was rotating in psychiatry – By the way, that’s not the summer program. That’s the medical school. In the medical school, the psychiatry, they would get in this big room and there was a psychiatrist, there was the psychologist, and all these folks. Social workers. Everybody’s there, and they’d discuss all the patients. Well, they had a bad habit in those days, and that was they’d smoke cigarettes like it was going out of style.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. What?

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. So, the room was full of smoke. So, one time, I was there and I raised my hand, and I made a comment about the cigarette smoke, and they just ignored me completely. I was just a student. But, they just ignored me completely. But, that may have also pissed folks off and said, “The nerve of a student to complain about cigarettes.” But, the room was full of smoke. In those days, you smoked cigarettes. People are going lighting. And so, they have no smoking and everything. 

  But, in those days, there were no smoke signs. Everybody used to smoke cigarettes whenever they wanted to. And, I thought for physicians to smoke cigarettes, it seemed to be a little bit counterintuitive. Yeah. But, in those days, they did.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, yeah. Yes, they did. Like most Americans. They would’ve been – 

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. That’s right. And, even up here at Henry Ford Hospital, at the time, the chief of medicine at Ford Hospital smoked cigarettes. Imagine. Chief of medicine smoking cigarettes? He’s treating all these people with bronchitis and emphysema. 

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. Yeah. Right. Probably had his favorite brand, too.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Well, once you get a bad habit, it doesn’t go away when you go to medical school. So, people keep their bad habits wherever they are.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. One of the things that the medical students always comment on is how consuming studying in medical school can be. Even from the very first moments when you’re not even in wards, but you’re in the classroom primarily. And, most of the teaching that I do is not in wards. It’s in the first two years. 

  And, one question that they wanted me to ask – Well, that they want to ask all of the alumni who’ve gone through the training is what kept you steady in pursuit of your medical degree? Things like other people, or hobbies, or other sources of inspiration that help you, I guess, put some boundaries around your life or that help you keep perspective. That help you overcome doubts that you might’ve had.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Yep. Of course, the church is helpful because it’s an outlet. So, you go to church and you kinda break the cycle. You go to church. And also, the All Mighty. Our Creator helps us see that hey, these are these bodies I’ve made, myself. And so, God helps. And so, you can always pray and the All Mighty will always do something to your mind to make you adjust so you’re good. 

  The other thing is that being a little asocial helps. Being a little bit asocial. I’m not antisocial, but I’m sometimes under-social. As my daughter would say – One of my daughters, she says I’m socially awkward ‘cause I’m not an extrovert type person. I don’t go to parties. So, if you’re not wasting your time – Not wasting your time. I shouldn’t say that. But, if you’re not doing things that you consider to be socially necessary, then you have time to study.

  And, if you have time to study, everything comes together. And, one good thing about University of North Carolina is that the lectures stop around 1:00 or 2:00, and after that, you’re on your own. You just have to read and study, and get it inside your head. And so, you get good books. Anatomy books. You get all kinds of good material, and you just have to just buckle under. Read and study.

  And, it works until you get to the third and fourth year where you’re in the clinic situation where you’re on call. You may not have time to study like you want to ‘cause you’re on rounds. You have to see patients. You have to do things like that. And, some of it has to do with how well you can think fast on your feet and how fast you can digest information. If you’ve got all day to figure it out, you can eventually do it so that by the end of it, you can score pretty well on exams. And so, the first two years are much better in that way.

  Of course, by the time you get to third and fourth years, though, the quicker you can do things, the better. And, if you’re slow like me, eventually, you can figure it out. But, in some of these areas, it’s better when you can think fast. I can think fast when I’ve already been exposed to something. Like, some people think that I think fast, but it’s because I’ve already had time to think through it a lot. But, if you’re fresh and you’re just starting off, it’s like me fixing the kitchen sink. People would think that he doesn’t know anything ‘cause I don’t do that.

  But, once you have got exposed for a while, you tend to know how to do things because you’ve got experience. You’ve got exposure. And so, once we got a certain amount of exposure, we just kinda got better and better at it. And, if nothing, I’m glad about the University of North Carolina, they were patient. They were patient enough to basically say, “Well, we’ll be patient with him. He just doesn’t have experience. Eventually, you’ll learn. You’ll do this.” 

  But, they knew I had a good motivation. They knew I was motivated. They knew that I was trying and they knew that I was rational, and all that. So, they said, “Well, he doesn’t have experience, but give him time. He’ll figure it out.” And, I have. I have. Now, a lot of things, I have a lot more experience in than I did then. And, that’s helpful because whenever I have students, I can see through that. I can see a student and realize that this student is not a student whose dumb. The student’s just haven’t had experience. You have to give the students some time to gain experience, and then they do better. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Speaking of getting experience, as you were coming into your fourth year, did you think you had enough experience or understanding under your belt to choose a residency program?

  Dr. Gaston: Yes. I think so because the training at the University of North Carolina was very, very good because not only was there the core campus where we saw a lot of tertiary care. A lot of people were kinda complicated. And, of course, nowadays, things that used to be considered complicated back then are garden variety. In other words, UNC had a CATSCAN, and not everybody had a CATSCAN. Whereas now, everybody’s got an MRI. But, in those days, what would happen is that the other hospitals and the community hospitals that we rotate through, they had their own style. Their own culture.

  And so, we got used to different cultures and different styles. And so, I’m glad I had that exposure because I kinda got used to seeing different types or modes of practice. Like, one of the doctors in one of the nursing homes, he knew I was interested in neurology. So, I was rotating with the family doctor. So, all the neurology, he gave to me. He said, “Oh, see this one.” ‘Cause he was also in charge of the nursing home. And, in the nursing home, there’s all that neurology, and one thing I learned is that you learn more neurology in the nursing home than you would anywhere. 

  And, we had people with all kinds of things that never saw UNC campus. They were in the nursing home. Huntington’s Disease. Parkinson’s. All these conditions are neurological. So, it was a feast. I can see exposures to all these things. And, he used to play ball. And, it was a small town about 6,000 people, and he played on the community baseball team. The doctor. Yeah. He played baseball. So, some of the people in the community, they knew him personally. They could come to the office. He knows them. 

  And, you get the idea that this was really a family practice. He knew how to really talk to the patients, and he was professional, but on the other hand, it wasn’t like I’m over here and you’re over there. He was very congenial, and get to learn that kinda style. And, we learned different styles of practice. Even the clinic, the SHAC clinic. Do you guys still have the SHAC clinic?

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Cool. Yeah. Oh, yes.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Even the SHAC clinic. We had the opportunity to rotate and go through the SHAC clinic so we could kinda pretend like we were real doctors. So, we could kinda do things. The attending was always there, and the attendings were always so understanding. They would be there. Always there. They signed the prescription. They made sure you thought through it. You get to see real patients. Then, it was just ideal. We just had good exposure.

  And again, I have to apologize to the surgery department because I wasn’t a good surgeon. And again, I wasn’t good at delivering babies. And, what else? Let’s see. Pediatrics. I was okay at pediatrics once they got to a certain age. But, those little ones, the little neonates, I couldn’t figure out when they were sick. In fact, one of the pediatricians or neonatologists, she had a baby in her hand and she was holding him, and she said, “What do you see in this baby?”

  So, I looked at the baby, and I think I said, “The baby was normal.” Yeah. I think I said, “The baby was normal.” And, she said, “No. You see this? You see that? You see this? You see that?” And, the baby had problems, but I thought the baby was normal. And then, she gave me another baby. “What do you think about this one?” So then, I start seeing all kinds of diseases and all kinds of things. And, she looked at me and she says, “This is a normal baby.”

  So, I was kinda out of place ‘cause I never had kids. If there was a baby when I was growing up, I always ran away from them. I didn’t have any exposure to babies. It was a different world. I couldn’t figure out if one was sick. So, once they got to me, like, little kids, really like human beings, once they got to that point, I could recognize – ‘cause I could remember myself being a child. So, I could say, “So, this must be right. This must not be right.” Or, something.

  But, I couldn’t relate to babies. When I was a baby, I didn’t remember anything. It’s not like the ladies, they would babysit or something. The girls, they were good at it because they played little dolls and things like that. They’d feed the dolls. The doll’s wet, have to put diapers on the dolls. I never played with dolls or anything like that. GI Joe. So, I wasn’t into these babies. So, I guess I looked a little bit awkward.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Yeah. That’s funny. You’re on the record, Dr. Gaston. So, any neonatologists who are hearing this or any surgeons who are hearing this, I’m sure they will understand.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Right. It’s true. That’s true. When I was a boy scout, we used to tie knots. But, in surgery, you have to tie knots a little bit differently. And see, I’m the kind of person, I have to play with something in order to do well at it. Kinda play with it a little bit. And so, if you can play on the patient’s wound, that’s okay. But, you can’t play on the patient’s wound. You have to sew it up. Which means that from the get-go, you have to know exactly how to place the suture.

  And, I was too awkward ‘cause I have to kinda fumble a little bit. And, if you do that, you’re not gonna be very welcome in a surgical suite. So, yeah. And, there’s no one to practice on. It’s not like you can go and practice on somebody. And, same thing with delivering babies. There’s nobody to practice on. You deliver the baby, and then you’re good. If you take too long, it’s like why are you taking so long delivering that baby? Why don’t you just take it out? So, those were my handicaps ‘cause I can’t just do stuff. I have to actually kinda play with things a little bit in order to get to know how to do something. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. As you finished and residency was looming, what kind of program were you looking for?

  Dr. Gaston: Well, I knew I liked neurology because I did well in neurobiology. And, I studied the brain so well, and that was out of fear because what happened is the first year in the neurophysiology, they talk about the Nernst equation and the membrane potential, and things like that. And, that kicked me in the rear so hard, I figured that by the next year, by December – And, that came up really quick ‘cause one thing about University of North Carolina, they make you feel comfortable. They make you feel very comfortable. They know you’re nervous, and they make you feel very comfortable.

  And so, you get used to being comfortable. And, you wake up one day and you’re three weeks behind. And, the tempo is very fast. And so, you say, “What happened?” And so, in December, I decided I was gonna really study and get ready for the next year, and not be fooled by people who try to make me feel better. So, I studied neuroscience and neurobiology before the course started. So, by the time the course started, I was advanced in neurobiology. More advanced, I think, than the other students, I believe. And, I really knew it very well. 

  So, I’ve always been good at neurobiology. So, what happened was I knew I was gonna do neurology, but I also like internal medicine. And, at one point in time, I thought I’d do both, but someone said, “Well, you’ll only wind up doing one or the other. So, pick and choose.” So, I picked neurology, which I’m glad I did. But, yeah. But, I like medicine. Internal medicine. But, neurology seemed to be where I was headed because neurology was really me. That was the profession that I was born for. Made for. So, anyway.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Right. Did the process of matching work as it does now? How did it work for you? The matching into a residency. 

  Dr. Gaston: It was good. Initially, I kinda thought University of North Carolina would be a good place to go. I think I put that on my list. But, I obviously didn’t think I’d go there because they only take the top. I was always in the middle of the class. In college, I got used to being top of the class in college. But, in medical school, everybody’s top of the class. So, I got used to being in the middle. And, there were some people in the class who already had PhDs in immunology or PhDs in different things.

  And so, I kinda considered that UNC wanted the top people who already were academic or research oriented. Something like that. But, I didn’t really expect to get there ‘cause I thought, “Okay. They want the top research type people or something.” And, of course, I could’ve done some things with Montgomery ‘cause I did some research with him in basic research, and that could’ve been something we could’ve done. But, he was in the dental school. He wasn’t an MD. He was a PhD.

  And so, I wouldn’t have had as much clout with him. And besides, you have to be in the clinical aspect, as well. But, I put it on my list. Didn’t expect it. And, a few other places I kinda put. But, Ford, I liked. Ford Hospital. And, I got there and I was happy. It was a good facility. I kinda thought it was good to go to a big city hospital. The pathology department made me interested in disease, and you kinda wanna see more of different diseases and all this. In big city hospitals, there’s a lot of “sin.” In big cities, there’s a lot of sin.

  So, in places like that, there’s a lot of shootings. There’s a lot where people get shot. People use drugs a lot. You see a lot of bad results in large quantities. And so, in the emergency room, the stuff you see at UNC, a few cases, you see a lot of them in the big city hospitals. They just pour right in. They’re in heart failure. They’re having heart attacks. They’re having all kinds of things. And so, I wanted that exposure. 

  So, Ford Hospital certainly gave me that exposure, I think more than wanted ‘cause eventually I said, “Whoa.” You’re always working all the time. And, the patients on the neurology service were always sick with something. We were always up all night treating people with acute acidosis or something. But, yeah. We wanted exposure to that. So, Ford, the match was pretty good. It worked out very well.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Oh. Did you say you went to Florida?

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, did I ever go to Florida?

  Dr. Necochea: No, no, no. Sorry. I missed the program that you went to for residency.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, I’m sorry. It’s in Detroit. Henry Ford.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, yes. Of course. Okay. Sorry.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Yes. No, I understand now. Yes. That’s a big city. Yeah. And, it’s a three year residency program, right?

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Well, what I did was I did was I was gonna go into neurology, but you have to do a flexible year first. But, neurology board requires six months of medicine and six months of pediatrics, I think. No. I think it requires at least six months of medicine, I think. And so, what I did was do a flexible year in which I did mostly internal medicine. Get my requirements out of the way. And, I did emergency room rotation. And then, I did rotation in neuropathology. 

  But, someone told me before the end of my internship at Ford, they warned me that the program was gonna be losing its accreditation in neurology. Yeah. ‘Cause when I interviewed, the program had certain neurologists there, and so forth. But, when I did residency there, those folks were gone. And, what happened was at Ford, there was a department of neuro something. But anyway, it includes neurology, neurosurgery, and psychiatry, and the head of the department is the head of neurosurgery.

  Well, all the neurologists didn’t wanna be run by a neurosurgeon. They didn’t want a neurosurgeon being part of their – But, neurology was under neurosurgery and neurology. They were all under the umbrella of the neurosurgery. Oh, yeah. I got it. They’re interviewing me from university. Okay. Yeah. Hold on one second.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh. Oh, no. Right. Sure.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, yeah. Oh, how’re you doing. Good. Oh, okay. Okay. [Inaudible] [01:11:37]. Okay. Very good. Yeah. Okay. We’ll be happy to see you. We’ll set something up. Okay. Very good. We’ll definitely set something up. Okay. Oh, sorry. Sorry for the interruption there.

  Dr. Necochea: It’s okay.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. So, yeah. So, I can’t remember what I was saying.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, you were saying that for neurology, you had these different components.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, yeah. They didn’t wanna let me know that the program was in some jeopardy. But, somebody squealed it and actually took me to the side and told me the truth, and said, “Hey, look. This program may be losing its accreditation.” Because a lot of neurologists left the program because they didn’t like the idea of being supervised by a neurosurgeon, or something like that. So, some folks had left, and it got down to the point where the neurology program was not in a state of being certified.

  But, the chairman told me, “Look. Don’t worry about a thing. I can get you anywhere in the country. I can get you Harvard. I can get you wherever.” Because he has a lot of clout. He was a very prominent neurosurgeon. And, he wanted me to stay in the program. But, somebody told me about Wayne State program across town. And so, I kinda jumped the ship and went to Wayne State program under John Gilroy, who was chairman of the department of neurology at Wayne State University.

  So, I joined their program, and that’s where I did my three year residence in neurology. So then, I did the fellowship at Indiana University and the EG. So, we didn’t really finish at Ford because to finish the internship, I bailed out and went to Wayne State. As it turns out, Ford now still has a very good residency. It’s a good neurology residency program. They did bounce back, and they have a very good program in neurology. 

  And in fact, I even took calls for neurology before I joined the neurology program. They asked me to take calls because they didn’t have a lot of people to cover. And, since they knew I was interested in neurology and neuroscience, I would basically take calls for neurology, even before I was in the neurology department. So, they paid me to cover. So, it was some extra cash. But, I wound up going to Wayne State to do neurology.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Yes. Oh. Yeah. And, from the information I had, you’ve stayed and made a home in the Midwest.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Well, what happened is that after I finished neurology at Wayne State, I went to IU to do fellowship and EEG, which also includes epilepsy because EG residency, we need a lot of EEGs for epilepsy. I then went to the practice in Ohio for a couple of years, and that was a very good practice and very good program, except the head of that practice left to go to do a practice in California. He was already doing two things at one time. He had the practice in Ohio, plus he had the practice in California. And, he was board certified in neurology, as well as physical medicine and rehab.

  So, he wound up going to California and leaving us. And, the hospital, they reassured us that everything was gonna be just fine. Don’t worry about it. I was used to him being there, and so forth. And so, when he was leaving, the hospital promised us. They said, “Don’t worry about anything.” But, there was another neurologist back in Detroit that wanted me to come up here and work with him. So, I wound up coming back up here.

  And, I didn’t have that much confidence in the hospital. And, it’s interesting because not long after that, one of the rheumatologists that was in our group, ‘cause we took care of the rehabilitation, he actually became a patient of mine. He came up here to see me one time, and he said, “Dr. Gaston, I should’ve left when you left.” So, it sounds like it may have been a good idea. 

  So, anyway. So, we wound back up in Detroit. So, it was a good thing. And so, we were good. Plus, my wife’s family is up here, too. And, we kind of thought about all of the good things in Detroit, and Greektown, and things like that. So, we thought, “Yeah.” So, we came back here.

  Dr. Necochea: How long have you lived in the Detroit area now?

  Dr. Gaston: I’ve been in Detroit now – Let’s see. We were here during residency from ’79 to ’83. And then, we went to IU, Indiana, for a year. To maybe ’84, maybe. And then, ’84-’86 or something like that. ’86 or something like that, we went to – Might be ’87, ’88. Anyway, somewhere around ’88, we went to Ohio. And then, I came back here in ’88 or ’89. ’88, ’89. And, I’ve been here ever since. About ’88, ’89. And so, yeah. We’ve been here since then. Back. We kinda chopped it up just a little bit.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Of course. Is this the longest you’ve lived in an area?

  Dr. Gaston: I was looking at North Carolina ‘cause that’s home. I thought to myself, “Wait a minute. I’ve been living here longer than I lived in North Carolina.”

  Dr. Necochea: Right. That’s what it sounds like.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. So, it’s amazing how time flies. But, yeah. We’ve been here longer than I’ve been in North Carolina, actually. Although, what happens is that when you’re in a different place like that, no place is like home because where you grew up in is what’s really yours’s. So, in a way, even though I live here, it’s not really my North Carolina. In fact, I was helping with some local work down in North Carolina, but I’ve never practiced in North Carolina, actually. Except as a medical student doing that. So, anyway. We really never practiced. So, yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Dr. Gaston, one of the last things that I wanna ask you, it goes back to this issue of race in medicine that our students are so interested in. One of the things that they’re most interested in is their own lives, their own careers as Black physicians, and they want to know how does being a Black physician matter to you and to your community? If you take stock of the 30 plus year career you’ve had, what would you say?

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Well interestingly, in my experience, it’s almost like it really never harmed me at all. Actually, it’s helped. It’s helped because in the Detroit area, a lot of the Black folks, they send patients to me because they wanna send patients to Black neurologists. And so, I tend to get not a monopoly. It’s not a monopoly. But, I see a lot of Black patients because their physicians are Black and they send patients to me.

  And so, I’m never lacking in terms of having patients. In fact, when I was in Ohio, almost everybody’s a White person. And, at the practice, there was a few Blacks, and almost everybody’s White. I never had any trouble there either. In fact, almost all my patients were White people, and I never had any problem with them, either. In fact, one patient came up to me one day, and he looked at me and he said, “Dr. Gaston, let me ask you. I hope you won’t be upset at this.” He said, “But, are you Black?”

  Well, you could look at me and see I was Black. But, I said, “Yeah. Sure.” I think what happened, I blended in fairly well. I think I didn’t expect anybody to be racist, and as soon as I didn’t expect them to be racist, they weren’t. If they were racist, I didn’t notice it. And so, I don’t remember having a problem. There may have been some people who were, but some of it is if you expect people to be racist, it’s almost like they will be because there’ll always be something that’s not quite right.

  And, the other problem, if they treated me badly, they treated everybody badly. What I found was a lot of White people that treat Black people bad, they treat White people bad, too. And so, I just kinda of consider it well, that’s just how they are, and I didn’t see they were picking on me necessarily. And so, I didn’t really take it as if it was a racial thing. And, even then, there’s some people actually seeming to be careful not to offend you because they know you’re Black, and they know if you’re Black, you’re gonna get upset.

  And so, they make sure they kind of treat softly. And, some people just try not to offend you. At any rate, they might treat you a little bit better ‘cause some of the surgeons may yell at the White person more than they yell at another Black person ‘cause if it was a Black person, they would get in trouble more ‘cause the other student would just take it. They would just accept it.

  Those were the days where you could yell at students or you could tell the other residents and things like that. It seems like if they’re gonna yell at anybody, you’re gonna be yelling at someone of lower ranks. Not somebody of another race. ‘Cause then, that would make it more complicated.

  Dr. Necochea: Right. Yeah. Indeed. And, we’re also trying not to continue the tradition at yelling at students anymore.

  Dr. Gaston: Right. That’s right. That’s correct. Yep. But, in the past, you were kinda used to it. And, it’s not that they would actually yell. They didn’t actually yell like yelling. What they would do is just embarrass you. They’d ask you a question, and if you didn’t know, you would be embarrassed. And, they would say it in such a way that made it clear that you should know better. That you should read. You should study. Why aren’t you learning? Or, something. But, they wouldn’t actually yell at you. But, it comes across as yelling because how loud people talk is not just what they say, but the meaning of what they say.

  Now, some of it is due to the kind of rotations I actually did because up here, it seems that the medicine people don’t really “yell.” They tend to be more – they talk in a gentler way, and I think it’s because they’re used to actually talking to patients. So, by talking to patients, they know how to talk to students. They know how to talk to everybody. Whereas surgeons, most of their patients are under anesthesia. They’re put to sleep or something. They don’t interact a whole lot. They make sure the wound is dressed and things like that, but they don’t actually interact in the same way.

  So, I’ve heard stories that in the OR, I guess because you’re under stress, sometimes the surgeons will “yell.” But, it’s the difference between speaking loudly because you wanna make sure they hear you loud and clear. And, I’m not sure about it because I wasn’t in surgery enough to know why. But, I have heard stories about physicians yelling at students, and I’ve heard about some surgeons who are very prominent yelling at students. 

  But, most of the time, it seems like it’s from the surgical service. Not as much the medicine service. The medicine people tend to talk in ways that are more rational, and that goes, in fact, that I think medicine people tend to be more rational in their thinking. And, they’re used to actually dealing with people at a level of talking to them in more rational ways. That may be why. Yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. Right. Exactly. I get it. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that, too. And also, thank you for all the time you’ve given me, Dr. Gaston. May I ask you just a couple of names of people that you’ve mentioned so that I can spell them correctly on the transcript? I’ll go in backwards order. You mentioned the name of Dr. Ausman? He was a neuro at Ford.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Oh, yeah. A-U-S-M-A-N.

  Dr. Necochea: Ausman. Got it. Thank you very much. The other name was Professor McCrae who was a great scientist at UNC? I think.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Histology. She was professor of histology at UNC. McCrae is M-C-C-R-A-E. McCrae.

  Dr. Necochea: C-R-A-E. Professor McCrae.

  Dr. Gaston: Yes. And then, Montgomery, Royce. He was a professor of anatomy in the anatomy department, but he mostly taught dental students. But, I think it’s probably the same department of anatomy at UNC. Royce Montgomery. Like, Montgomery, Alabama. And then, there was Dr. Anderson. Dr. Anderson taught biochemistry. And, let’s see. Who else? I’m thinking. Can’t remember the microbiologist. Yeah. So, yeah. Those are some of the ones that stick out for the moment. I’m gonna really feel bad tonight when I remember the ones I don’t remember and I should’ve said. And also, Marion Philips. Marion Philips was very good.

  Dr. Necochea: Royce Montgomery. Cool. Oh, yes. Him, I definitely have down in my notes.

  Dr. Gaston: Yes. And also, the tops, and you know who that is. Oh, Bryan. Dr. Bryan.

  Dr. Necochea: Oh, Jim Bryan.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Jim Bryan. I’m sorry I didn’t go to his funeral. He was the best. Just the tops. There’s nobody like Jim Bryan.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. He was a good guy. Yeah.

  Dr. Gaston: He was really a great professor. A great teacher. A highly respected and highly loved person. So, yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. By the way, you mentioned a name of this Indian philosopher when you were thinking about your professor of philosophy, and I did not write down the philosopher’s name.

  Dr. Gaston: Tagore. T-A-G-O-R-E.

  Dr. Necochea: Tagore. Got it.

  Dr. Gaston: T-A-G-O-R-E. Tagore.

  Dr. Necochea: Thank you.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Rabindranath, which would be R-A-B-I-N-D-R-A-N-A-T-H. Rabindranath. 

  Dr. Necochea: R-A-V-A –

  Dr. Gaston: B-I – I think it’s R-A-B-I-N-D-R-A-N-A-T-H Tagore, which is I think T-A-G-O-R-E, I think. But, I could easily be wrong with that spelling. He’s a very prominent Indian philosopher, by the way. He’s very prominent. If you misspell it, the correct spelling will probably pop up.

  Dr. Necochea: Thank you. Yes. Google is wonderful for that.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. That’s right. Tagore. Rabindranath Tagore.

  Dr. Necochea: And, the last name that I have for you is this friend of yours’s from the church. His first name was Norville.

  Dr. Gaston: Oh, yeah. Norville Gadiedison.

  Dr. Necochea: G –A –

  Dr. Gaston: D-I-E-D-I-S-O-N. Diedison.

  Dr. Necochea: Got it. I wrote it down as Garrison, but it’s Gadiedison.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. I haven’t seen him in a long time. I haven’t seen him since we were kids. Actually, it was a slightly different church ‘cause he brought me to his church, and I went to the Evans church after that. And, I haven’t seen him in a long time. It’s interesting that we used to walk along, and he used to smoke cigarettes and drink a little bit, and he was a high school student. But, he would drink a little bit, smoke a cigarette, and no drugs, and he would peruse a lot with the girls. But, we would hang around, and I’d never smoked, never drank. It was a really weird combination. 

  But, he invited me to his church, which sounds paradoxical. But, he invited me to his church. And so, that’s how I started going to church. And then, after that, I starting going to Evans church. And so, yeah. That was very instrumental in helping me to get my footing and stay out of trouble.

  Dr. Necochea: Yeah. The last thing that I wanted to ask you, Dr. Gaston, is you mentioned you’ve written a couple of books.

  Dr. Gaston: Yes.

  Dr. Necochea: Can you tell me the names?

  Dr. Gaston: One is called Clones of God.

  Dr. Necochea: Wait, what? Something of God?

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. Clones. Clones of God. It looks at human beings as being clones of something far greater than we are. So, that book, I wrote years ago and I haven’t capitalized on it because I’ve been so busy. But, I self-published it. I still have copies. And, the other book is called The Land of Bondage, which I wrote about 12, 15 years ago. I can’t remember exactly. But, my wife actually, I made her the official author. I gotta contact the copyright office. But anyway, I wrote that book, and the book was about Russia and its attack on the United States. The nuclear war.

  And, it went out of vogue when Ronald Reagan became president. Shortly after Ronald Reagan ‘cause when Ronald Reagan became president, Russia and the United States became good friends. It looked like there would never be a nuclear war between the United States and Russia. So, I just kind of let the book go into hibernation. But of course, with the state of the world today, it seems to be more possible. So, I sent the book to the publishers, Macauley, and they think it’s a good book and they’re gonna publish it as a novel. So, that’ll come out maybe around August, September.

  Dr. Necochea: Whoa. Right. Oh, my God. That’s wonderful. Congratulations.

  Dr. Gaston: Yeah. So, we’ll see. It’s a novel, and it has all of the features of a good novel. There’s nice character development, and there’s a plot. One of my in-laws read it and she said she cried in the end of it. Anytime you’ve brought emotion to people, it has a chance. So, yeah.

  Dr. Necochea: Wow. That’s great. I’m so glad to hear this. I’ll be rooting for the book. Yeah. All right. Last thing now. I have to stop this part of our conversation. But, please hang on for a moment, okay, Dr. Gaston?

  Dr. Gaston: Right. Yeah. Yes, yes.
   
   [End of Audio]

  Duration: 95 minutes

   

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About

A North Carolina native, Dr. David Gaston was born on June 8, 1954, and raised in Winston Salem. For his undergraduate education he attended Winston Salem State University before pursuing his medical degree at UNC. Initially inspired by his faith, his curiosity for science grew into a respect for medicine. As an early beneficiary of UNC’s premedical Medical Education Development program, Dr. Gaston had the opportunity to experience firsthand the profound learning opportunities at UNC by interacting with students and instructors who largely influenced his career trajectory. Having early exposure to medical school courses helped solidify his desire to be a physician, but he also was able to engage in meaningful research which helped him further appreciate all UNC could offer. After enrolling in UNC as a medical student he continued to have positive experiences with faculty and attendings alike. Dr. Gaston speaks highly of not only those that taught him, but also about the support he had from individuals with administrative roles. As he matriculated through medical school, he appreciated the unique opportunities afforded to a UNC student like early exposure to CT scan imaging and working at the student led SHAC clinic, that still operates today. For his career, he ultimately decided to pursue neurology and goes as far to say that it “was the profession I was born for”. Though residency led him to Henry Ford Hospital and ultimately settling down in Michigan with a successful practice, he still fondly calls North Carolina home. Regarding his experience as one filled with positivity and support, his time at UNC was fruitful for both his career and the patients he has worked with.